02/06/1998
IWDM Study Library 
Interview-U.S. News and World Report
Chicago, IL

By Imam W. Deen Mohammed
Speaker 1:
On February the Sixth, 1998 in Chicago, Illinois Imam W. Deen Mohammed granted the following interview to US News and World Report.
IWDM:
Magazine. Yeah.
Interviewer:
Well, I'm very flattered and I-
IWDM:
A long time. A long time. I got off for a while but I got back on.
Interviewer:
Well, you probably been reading it longer than I have.
IWDM:
Yeah, I bet you. I bet you
Interviewer:
I've only been working there for a few months. I've been writing pieces from India and-
IWDM:
Then you were younger, you see, that's 30 years ago-
Interviewer:
Really? Oh, my editors will be very happy to hear that.
IWDM:
Yeah. A long time ago.
Interviewer:
Well, what I'm trying to do, and I hope it will be a successful endeavor, is to present a much more balanced view of Islam in America than the media generally tends to portray.
IWDM:
We were told and I'm eager to contribute in any way I possibly can.
Interviewer:
Great. Well, first off, why don't you just tell me a little bit about what Islam means to you and what the future of Islam in America is?
IWDM:
Yes. When I think of Islam, really now presently, I think of Islam as our hope as Muslims for having serious problems moved out of the way. Problems that I experienced as a young man, and I would say a distorted form of religion. I won't say Islam. A distorted form of religion. And as a follower of my father, Elijah Muhammad, he passed in 1975. But I used to think that we were really the people, African-American or Blacks who were kind of separated from everybody else. But as I got to know about my Christian neighbors, especially the leaders, political leaders, and church leaders, I started to see that we are not the only ones. That many African-American Christians or Black Christians also have a problem having faith in the future of Blacks and whites, living and working together for a better world.
IWDM:
It has been Islam that has convinced me that if we follow the principles of the Prophets of G-d, for us its Muhammad, Prayers and Peace be upon him. For Christians it's Jesus Christ, Peace be upon him. If we follow the best of the guidance that we receive by way of the Prophets from G-d, and we can have a good world. We can have a good world, a world that welcomes all of us at the table of the graces that G-d created for us.
Interviewer:
Inshallah.
IWDM:
Yes. And I believe that's what all communities want. All communities want the same. They just want to have the respect and be included at the world table of the graces of G-d.
Interviewer:
Now, I've heard a lot of different estimates of the numbers of groups and the individuals affiliated with your movement. What kind of numbers are out there? I've heard everything from 200,000 to two million.
IWDM:
Yes. It is my belief that perhaps active.... You know the Christian membership is a great majority in this country. But mostly Christians that are attracted to Islam are not church-born Christians. Very few of them are church-born Christians. So, we have many Christians, millions of Christians in the Christian society that are not in touch with Christianity except just as a name, but not a way of life. And they follow habits. They follow by habits what is American, not what is Christian. And we have many Muslims now who are no different. They're Muslims by name and they follow by habit what is Muslim. "As Salaam Alaikum, Wa Alaikum As Salaam", you know.
And maybe occasionally they'll attend a Eid gathering or holiday gathering or something but they're just in the American society. They're just in the American society, that's all. But if you ask them saying, "Are you a Muslim?" "Well, yes, I'm a Muslim." Well, who you identify with? "Imam W. Deen Mohammad", "The Nation of Islam", one or the other. And it's my belief from not just guessing without something to support my conclusion. But I studied the conversion records till now, almost till now. Well, I want to say now till now. Last time I did up until '92. Also, I'm influenced by the number of people that I meet in the course of a day traveling. I've traveled a lot.
I travel more than I stay put who tell me that they're Muslim and they identify with me. They see me and greet me on the street they pick me out. So, I believe that there is close to two million African-American Muslims by name now. Not necessarily by practice, African-American Muslim. And I do believe that there is close to half a million of African American Muslims who are practicing Muslims. They're practicing Muslims as much as any other Muslim public is a practicing Muslim. You understand where I'm coming from?
Interviewer:
Sure.
IWDM:
And you won't see all these people come to one place. Never will all the people who belong to a religion, come to one scene or one place. And I have purposely, I've done it purposely. I purposely told my audiences that it's not important that you come to a physical facility to identify with Islam or with Muslims. I said, "Well, it is important that you stay in touch with the Revelation, the scripture that G-d gave us through Muhammad The Prophet." That's the Qur'an. That you stay in touch with that book and you stay in touch with the reality, the real life of the man who received that book about 14 centuries ago, Muhammad, the Prophet of Islam. So that's what I stress. And I say it's not even that important that when you attend one of these facilities, come to one of these facilities, that you come to an African-American facility. I say every mosque is a mosque of a Muslim.
It may be more convenient for you, maybe you can feel more comfortable in a mosque that's not African-American and that's true. I just attended a meeting here downtown in Chicago. And I was there as their guest to lead the Jum'ah, the prayers. But really I was feeling the brotherhood of Islam with the different nationalities represented there. Downtown is a situation for that and it was very, very comforting for me to be in service with so many different nationalities. So really I prefer that kind of environment myself. My spirit prefers that kind of environment to one that's all Black or all white or all red or all whatever. I think that's Islam and that's humanity. That's the human spirit. True human spirit.
Interviewer:
Now, about how many of the, say the two million African American Muslims or of the larger Muslim community in America, what kind of numbers are there about how many of them are affiliated with your organization?
IWDM:
Well, I'm affiliated, I would think that figure I gave you about a half a million would be affiliated. And among them would be some non-African-Americans, but a very small percentage I would think maybe two and a half to a maximum of five percent who are not African American or Black who are not Blacks. But I have tried to present myself publicly as a person who's interested in all Muslims' condition, our condition, and us following the right direction and the path of G-d. I've indicated that very strongly to all Muslims and so as a result of that, many immigrant Muslims identify with my leadership, though they're not affiliated with the mosque and my leadership.
Interviewer:
Yes, I was surprised to see that at the downtown masjid that there were very large numbers of non-African Americans, possibly more non-African-American than African Americans there. I think a testament to that you're not just talking the talk, but walking the walk.
IWDM:
I try to.
Interviewer:
Now you've been quoted often as saying just how Islam can fit in into the American system of values at the beautiful masjid in DC. Imam Yusef, he was actually the one who suggested that I come and talk to you. Several of the people there said that you had spoken about how the Declaration of Independence could be almost an Islamic document-
IWDM:
That's right. Now what I meant that it's in the spirit, same spirit as Islam for mankind, for the destiny of mankind as a human group destined to meet with the will of G-d, to agree in the will of G-d and the will of G-d is not, for G-d says that He looks not to our faces. He looks to our hearts, not to our faces. Whether the face is the face of a rich man or poor man or a white man or a Black man. G-d is not looking to that. He's looking at our hearts. Our intentions, our good intentions. And I believe that the future for us as citizens of this country and people who support the Constitution of these United States. I believe that the future intended for us by the Founding Fathers, intended for us as a society by the Founding Fathers is very close, are almost the same as the future attended by G-d for us as followers of the scripture of our Constitution, the Qur'an, for our spiritual life and for our community life.
So, I see the compatibility. I see a compatibility for the spirit and the language, not just the language, just the spirit, but the spirit and the language, the spirit of the Constitution is that we live with respect for the common life of people. The first life of people and the first life of people, the human life. So we are to unite together as equals upon the recognition that we all are human beings and that's what G-d wants. The same thing, put it in different lengths, little slightly different language, but it's exactly the same thing that G-d has created us human beings in the morals that He himself prepared for us and that is to worship G-d. Don't just go your own way, but worship G-d, have recognition, recognize that there's an authority bigger than man, worship G-d, but go for the best that you have in your creation for your destiny as a human person. And that to me, that's again the vision of the Founding Fathers and the vision that we have in Islam.
Interviewer:
At the masjid several people told me that you had preached that even the language of the documents could well be Islamic. That talk of "Endowed by the Creator with inalienable rights, life, liberty, pursuit of happiness." That could have come from the mouths of either Islamic teachers or either from-
IWDM:
Certainly or from a politician who stand upon the framework of the Constitution of these United States. Yeah. It could come from either. I find great satisfaction in recognizing that the language of our Constitution puts G-d above man and puts a man on common grounds in terms of what he can contribute to the world. And it was inevitable that American society recognize minorities, African Americans as equal citizens and accord equal rights and opportunities to all of us in this country for every human being in this great society, we call the American society. It was inevitable because the Founding Fathers set the framework for it and gave the spirit and it had to come about.
Interviewer:
Now, people often speak about Judeo-Christian values in America, but I have often wondered just what are these Judeo-Christian values that would not also be Islamic values.
IWDM:
Not many. Not many. Very much the same.
Interviewer:
Can you think of any qualities that Judaism and Christianity may have in common that would not also be shared by Islam?
IWDM:
I don't know any worth mentioning.
Interviewer:
Well, it seems that way.
IWDM:
That we would also share. Yes, that's true. One problem for us is, and I don't know if this is Christianity or American secular society, I wouldn't say this is so much Christianity. And that is the belief that people are to be free with I would say with no environment or with no framework for that freedom. Freedom with no framework, freedom with no environment. Where are we to be free? You're not supposed to be the free in the washroom. You're supposed to get in there and do what you have to do and get out of there. Freedom is in the society of men, of civilized people. So, we have the same idea of freedom that this nation had in the beginning of its experiment with freedom. And freedom meant freedom to pursue human excellence and especially intellectual excellence. That's what freedom meant. That was the freedom, the most precious part of the human being except for the heart.
And the heart is only good if it's working with the brain, is the intellect of man. And we believe in Islam that G-d created man as an intellect, to be of intellect. And it is because of him functioning as an intellect that he is able to make the progress and reach the great objectives that G-d set for him. Set forth for him. And that if the intellect is not developed, education doesn't lead the society, then a society will fail to reach the destiny that G-d wants for us. We won't get that destination. So we see the intellect as being very important. So when we think of freedom, first thing we think of is freedom of the intellect. And I believe this was the idea in Christianity in Christian society, where that freedom means the freedom of our intellect. And I make a little joke, I say freedom, I say listen to it. It says free dome. I say, "So where's the dome? This is the dome."
And I would say that we share the same respect and appreciation for freedom with Christians in that we both see the intellect, and I would say higher education, quality education as I would say the forerunner of civilization. As much as we agree there, that we share that same value of freedom as a value. But all the other values we the same. I tell Muslims, I say, "We say we don't drink alcohol," and we tend to think that Christians are all drunkards, are all drinkers. I said the more conscious Christians see alcohol as a sin and an evil on society, even though they may take a drink in moderation, but they know that drinking is a sin. And we are told by our Prophet, the Prophet said "In alcohol is benefits and harm." He said, "In alcohol, both benefits and harm." He said, "But the harm outweighs the benefits, therefore it should be haram. Forbidden. It should be forbidden."
So, I told them that when Christians look at the harm and benefits of alcohol, they too take our position, same position. We take the same position that we have to control the amount of liquor and addiction to alcohol in society. Well I came through a community, I think it was a Dutch community. And they had no liquor stores there. So, I told them, I say "There are Christians have already taken the lead. All we have to do is get on board." I say "They have liquor-free neighborhoods, Christians in this country."
Interviewer:
That's quite true. Now, what aspects of teachings of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad have you kept, and which ones have you moved away from? I mean, of course, your record is out there for people to see, but just to encapsulate it for my readers who are unfamiliar with the sweeping changes that you've made.
IWDM:
Yes. Well, you don't have time for me to explain all this. So, I'm going to quickly hit some points. The most important thing, and it seems like it's a contradiction but it's not, is faith in G-d. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad didn't give us religion in a straight way. He taught us something that was impossible for us, very ridiculous. That man, Black man was G-d. But he did tell us that G-d, whether the Black man or whatever G-d is G-d, G-d is the Supreme, G-d is over everything. And we need G-d. We have to depend on G-d. We should pray to G-d. So, he did give us a sense of faith, experience with faith. And we have retained that. We couldn't leave G-d. I considered going to Communism in my life as a young man because what I was taught was bothering my head too much.
When I read, some of the Communist beliefs that it appeal to my good senses, my rational sense more than what I was getting from my father. So, I was considering examining Communism and maybe thinking about it. I was thinking maybe even that the teacher of my father recognized Socialism because a little pamphlet we got from his teacher, his teacher's name is Fard, not an American. He came from outside. And it says, "What is socialism? It says "Socialism is to advocate a society of men, a group of men for one common cause, and equality means to be equal in everything." Now, I couldn't buy that either. How you going to be equal in everything? G-d has made us equal and unequal. We can't be equal in everything. Somebody's going to be superior to another and so I was just bothered. What I'm saying is I was just bothered. Nothing was satisfying my mind and I came to the conclusion that the best society for us is the society of Islam as seen in the Qur'an in the life of Muhammad the Prophet.
Interviewer:
But could you just review very briefly the most important things that you kept and most-
IWDM:
Faith number one. Faith number one. We remain people believing in G-d that there's a Superior over us. That we are dependent upon a Superior. That is G-d. So, I kept that, but I also kept, I would say, a desire to see African-American people with a better life on this earth. And all people too. But I felt a personal, I would say kind of a personal responsibility to serve the improvement of African-American life in community, not necessarily individual life. There's some Christians, they have beautiful African-American Blacks. They have beautiful lives. They have beautiful individual life, beautiful family life and there are some wealthy African Americans. They're doing very well. They have their life. This is good. But when I look at the neighborhoods and the community of African Americans, I still see that there's a great need for change. Something has to happen to change the way we look at our responsibility in community.
So, I kept that. I also kept the sense of government. I believe that The Nation of Islam trained us to be militant, but not militant to go to Africa, not even to separate from the US and demand some separate states as The Honorable Elijah Muhammad was saying in the sixties. But most important for us was to appreciate government in our lives and to live with a sense of government and to have that government all in my personal life, have that government in my family life, and to try as much as possible to awaken a sense of government in my neighbor's life. So that the neighbors have a sense of government and appreciation for government. So, I've become almost a fanatical supporter of the United States Government. It is because The Honorable Elijah Muhammad and his teacher made me appreciate a sense of government, the value of government. I value government in the lives of people and I think G-d intended for us to have government in our lives. So that's the main thing. The rest of it is ridiculous. I don't know why...
Interviewer:
What specific things have you moved away from? The theory of Yacub.....
IWDM:
Yes. What I've moved away from is the tendency of my father's teacher to give us what I would call is myth of creation. A myth of creation. And that's what we all have. We all got myths of creation. Yeah, I've read books on Oriental theology, Oriental myths, pardon me, Oriental myths, African myths. And that's what we all were given. Myths. So Fard said, "Well here people have been cut off from their myths. They're in America and they lost. They've been cut off from their myths. So let me give them a myth." So, he gave us the myth of creation that flattered the ego of the Black man.
And that to me is something that will keep us confused and deny us opportunities to grow and prosper in the world of real or truth, in a world of reality. So, I don't buy it anymore. I see it as myth. I get benefits from it. I get intellectual benefits from it, from the study of it. I think the man was kind of a genius. He put together a powerful myth. And now that I know where he got the pieces from, he was like Frankenstein, Dr. Frankenstein. He picked up some dead pieces here and some dead pieces there then he put them all together. And then he breathed life into the creature that he was making.
Interviewer:
You mean The Honorable Elijah Muhammad or Fard Muhammad?
IWDM:
Fard Muhammad.
Interviewer:
Fard Muhammad.
IWDM:
Yeah. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad he didn't have the circumstance in his life to make him think that way.
Interviewer:
It's always seemed amazing to me that Fard Muhammad, a man whose background is mysterious. So you've-
IWDM:
Mysterious, you're right. Yes.
Interviewer:
You've noted that you believe he came from India rather than from Mecca.
IWDM:
Yes. Yes, I do. I believe he came from the area where Ahmadiyas are, where the-
Interviewer:
Pakistan.
IWDM:
Right. Where the founder of Ahmadiyas was in the area of the Qadiyani people. Lahore, Pakistan. In that area.
Interviewer:
Right. That's where I was living at until very recently.
IWDM:
Yeah. I believe he came from that area and I believe that he also was influenced by the many religions of India. Not just the teachings of Ahmadiyya, the Ahmadiyas, but the many religions of India. I think he was influenced by those many religions to formulate for us a temporary religion. And I say that because I'm convinced that he meant it to be a temporary religion for us. He meant for us to one day come into Islam.
Interviewer:
Now, perhaps the major point of divergence with the old Nation of Islam philosophy and the doctrine that you now preach is that in Orthodox Sunni Islam, of course, the belief that Muhammad, Peace be upon him, is the last and the seal of the Prophets and that there is no G-d, but G-d. Just to recap what I'm sure is old for you, but for our readers, just to recap, you've moved away from and renounced the belief that Fard Muhammad is associated with the divinity and that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad was a Prophet.
IWDM:
That's right. Exactly. We have come to know that Fard, my father's trainer, or teacher wanted to put something together, formulate an idea or way of life or religion, concept of religion for us that would be welcomed by us, that would quickly be accepted by us. So what he did, he created something that would appeal to our need to feel good as Blacks and good, even superior. Something to inflate our egos. And he also recognized that Blacks, even Blacks that dislike whites, thought they would never be able to live in peace or have a good life with whites, living with white. Those Blacks, many of them were Christians in their hearts, if not Christians, in their practices, and many of them are Christians in their practice. So, what he tried to do is introduce something similar to Christianity. So Christianity, Blacks already believed that a man was G-d called Jesus, a picture is given to us as Jesus Christ as a white man or Jesus.
And Blacks were already believing that G-d is a man image that was nothing new. So Fard saw that he can get him quicker, get us quicker to come over to him if he present what we were already accustomed to. So, he gave us religion that was really not Christianity really it's just as ridiculous for Christians as it is for Muslims, what he gave us. But when it comes to similarities in language, language similarity for the idea of religion, that what he gave us is more similar to Trinitarianism than it is to Islam or monotheism, the religion of Jews you see. And there was a Black man, very popular Black man who had already presented himself as G-d, new Jesus Christ, Father Divine, he's called. And so Fard didn't have to stretch his mind or strain his mind to come up with something. There was a Black man, a Christian, who was already telling his congregation that if you want to see Jesus look at me.
This is documented and Father Divine was telling his congregation, "If you want to see Jesus look at me." So, he didn't want his congregation looking at whites or a white image or a European man or Jew. He said, "If you want to see Jesus look at me a Black man." That's what he said, a Black man. So, Farad saw this and liked it, obviously. And he looked at Booker T. Washington, what Booker T. Washington was doing in Tuskegee University, how he was having his students go through military drills. And he believed that it would help discipline them. Fard adopted it. So, Farad was just a very open-minded and alert man and a very daring, bold, bold thinker who believed that he could formulate something. If he studied the people, he could formulate something that they would have an appetite for. And that's what he did. He formulated something that he thought the Black separatists or extremists had an appetite for. And he made his package to appeal to Black separatists. Black supremacists. People who wanted to feel bigger than a white man.
And it worked, but he made it temporary. He put in language. If I had done it, believe me, I'd probably be still following it because I would've respected the logic and reasoning. But he intentionally had a head-on collision with logic, with common sense. He intentionally did that. So that when his following that he attracted from the most uneducated and most deprived, culturally deprived of Detroit, Michigan and Chicago, South Side, et cetera. When that following find better opportunities in America and follow his direction, he said, "Get education, learn about civilization." He said, "Become engineers." This is Fard. He gave us little writings and said, "Study engineers. Study civil engineering, study electrical engineering." This is what he said to us in his own writings, Farad did not my father. Yeah. So he knew that if he encouraged us to go in the direction of knowledge in higher education and professions, that eventually we would be too rational and too sensible to accept his irrational basis for our existence in this world. And it worked.
Interviewer:
Now, did your father ever directly tell you that he wanted the movement to eventually join the Orthodox Sunni?
IWDM:
No. In fact, he made efforts to protect us against the temptation to join Orthodox Islam, Orthodox Muslims. He told us that his teacher said, "Be careful of them because they will misguide you." He said, "They will misguide you and they will deprive you of your blessing that you have come from Allah. Allah intend to give you a special blessing." He said, "If you be influenced by them, they will deprive you of that special blessing." That's what he told us. And he was correct. Because most of the immigrant Muslims that come over here, they want to be our big brother. In fact, more than that, they want to be our second daddy. They saw the white supremacists as our first daddy, and they envy it. They envy what was going on in that relationship and now they wanted to become our second daddy.
Interviewer:
So how do-
IWDM:
The Honorable Elijah Muhammad, his teacher was right. His teacher knew their mentality. So he said something to the... And right now, I'm not a Muslim because of me and my mind or my heart embracing the message of Orthodox Islam. I'm a Muslim because of me following my curiosities as The Honorable Elijah Muhammad encouraged me to follow my curiosity and finding in the Qur'an the light, this light of truth and finding in Muhammad the beauty of humanity. That's why I'm a Muslim.
Interviewer:
Your own personal progression seems to mirror that of your friend Malcolm X, that from the teachings of the old Nation of Islam to Orthodox Sunni Islam. Can you speak a little bit about your own personal ties to Malcolm X? How much of your own philosophy is in congruence with his and whether there is any difference?
IWDM:
Well, what came from Malcolm was that the correct religion was the religion of the millions of Muslims on this earth, not the Islam that he learned from the Temple of Islam, from the Temple of Islam. So Malcolm and I came to the same conclusion, but I think for Malcolm, that was a relief station. Okay. For me, it's not a relief station. It's a call to go to work in the path of G-d. That's the difference. For Malcolm, it was a relief station. Here I'm relieved. I don't have to worry about Yakubs history anymore, that I could never digest mentally. I don't have to worry about the Honorable Elijah, Muhammad as being our leader anymore. I can reject him now. The Prophet of Islam is all of our leader. So that was relief station. Now that I'm relieved.
Now let me get my agenda together and he got his agenda together. His was to appeal to the United Nation for relief for Black people, not to trust America, but to go to the United Nations and make his appeal there, to get them to see that this is not a civil rights issue. This is a human rights issue. And the United Nation ought to take this case.
Okay. And his interest was in Africa. Africa, the militant leaders of Africa. His pride was Africa's glory. You see? And my pride was faith in G-d and it still is. So don't think because we both says Islam is correct and the old teachers are wrong that we were together. We were not together. And I don't think if he was living now, I don't think we'd be together. I think he'd be more political than I am. And he would be less community oriented than I am. I'm community oriented. He would be politically oriented and whether he was true in saying that he was not racist anymore, I think he would still be called racist because he would still be championing the Black man's case and his complaints. The complaints and case of the Black man. I can champion the case, but I can't handle those complaints.
Interviewer:
What does that-
IWDM:
Too many complaint-
Interviewer:
Too many complaints-
IWDM:
Too many and too many ridiculous complaints that seems to keep us in our situation. I believe the way to come out of our situation is the way that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad wants to do. Elijah Muhammad was right, that you have to stop blaming others for your situation and you have to blame yourself for your situation and do something about your own situation. So the honorable Elijah Muhammad was correct there, but I think Malcolm is a political man. So the politician always take up the issues. He doesn't look at to see if it's rational or not. But my people says this is hurting.
Interviewer:
Now on the issue of politics as well, it's somewhat of a departure that you've lifted the ban on voting and ban on public life. And for a time you were thinking even of running for President yourself. Well, is that a possibility at any-
IWDM:
No, no. I said that just to make our people more conscious of the freedom that we have in this country to pursue even the Presidency if we have what it takes to become President. I said in hopes that more of us will take that seriously and in the future we have more candidates from the African-American people seeking to be the leader of this great nation.
Interviewer:
Do you see any prospects out there? People talk about General Powell, people talk about Jesse Jackson.
IWDM:
Yes. General Powell. General Powell is a man that I think would make a good second or a good first for the United States. Vice President or President. Right.
Interviewer:
Who else might be good people to watch?
IWDM:
I haven't found him yet.
Interviewer:
What about Jesse Jackson? There was some static back in the, I believe it was '84. Is that all in the past?
IWDM:
Well, I never took him seriously when he was talking about running for President, I never took him seriously. I thought he was trying to do just what I was trying to do, just get it on the mind of more of those who perhaps will be qualified.
Interviewer:
Actually, that was the fruit when I was just starting out in journalism-
IWDM:
He had too much wind in his mouth to be President of the United States.
Interviewer:
But do you think he has moved beyond that? Do you think that it's-
IWDM:
He possibly can move beyond that but I don't know if he'll move beyond that yet.
Interviewer:
About the same time that was happening in one of your publications, you said that Ronald Reagan had on the whole done more good than bad. Do you still-
IWDM:
I meant for our situation, for African-American situation. Yes. I think the Democrats were doing everything to keep us with the Democratic Party, but was not in a situation because of that, because of being more interested in us remaining Democrats than anything else. They were not looking at what's best for our conditions, what's best for our sensitivities. So, in my opinion, they fed those sensitivities of the Blacks that have weakened us instead of strengthened us as a people. And that's the awareness that we have been mistreated and held back and don't have jobs and need to have more opportunities to be made equal. So, to me, they increased the volume of our song of our lamenting hymns. And that's not good for us. The slaves, when they were free we learn from the study of the effect of Proclamation, the Proclamation freeing us that those slaves, they were celebrating and cheering and that many of us was seen in the fields with their plows still in the hands leaning on their plow.
And some were seen with a piece of printed material trying to read it and that's what they thought freedom meant. Now we can learn to read, now we can go to schools, we can become educated. So that's what freedom meant to them. And now we can have a part in the world of the white man. We can have a place and a part of the world man. A part means we can have our businesses, we can have citizenship, we can have businesses. So that's what freedom meant to them. I think the Democrats didn't keep to that original spirit of the Black people, but the politicians of the Black politicians who have been nothing but leaders who register complaints and then carry them to the white man. They don't examine complaints. They just register complaints. Take it to the Black man. So, the Democratic Party, I think have became the second church, and whoever the President, he became the second Christ for Black Christians.
Interviewer:
Often there's been, but-
IWDM:
I mean that. I mean that just as I'm saying. Yeah, put too much faith in the President of the United States. If we get a good President of the United States, we going to be all right.
Interviewer:
So, it seems there's often a congruence between the African-American leaders who are tired of dependency and Republican leaders who seem to have their own agenda that may really not be all that sympathetic to African Americans. Is this sort of coming together of unlikely allies, is it more of a reflection on the moral bankruptcy of the Democrats than on any real tie to the Republicans, or is that an unduly cynical outlook? I mean, do you consider yourself a Republican or do you just consider-
IWDM:
I can't. I can't make a decision. I'm liked a lot by Conservatives and Republicans and they send me some very interesting invitations, very attractive invitations to join them. But I haven't been able to myself make up my mind to be a Republican or a Democrat. I like something in both and I think I can be a Democrat and yet be the Conservative person I am. I don't think I have to be on the extreme left to be a good Democrat. So, I'm hoping that Colin Powell will one day decide to run for President or at least to be the partner of someone running for President as Vice President. And I'm hoping that he will remain the Democrat. He'll be Democrat, not a Republican.
Because I think there's less, I would say, attention from Democrats on how democratic you are than there is attention from Republicans on how Republican you are. So, I think a Democrat is kind of a loose thing. You can be Conservative and yet a Democrat and being respected and loved by Democrats depending on the season, what time it is and I think the season now, the time is for conservatism.
Interviewer:
I assume a lot of that though is a moral conservatism.
IWDM:
Yes. That's exactly what it is.
Interviewer:
Right. Do you see a danger though in when we put forward a message of self-reliance, which is a strong self-motivated message I think that can work well with any political program. Do you see a danger of the Republicans taking that aspect of it? That yes, be self-reliant. Don't take anything from us without taking the other side, which is we're self-reliant but we demand our rights. Do you see a danger of the Republicans using only one side of the equation without the other?
IWDM:
Yes, I do. Yes, I do. But at the same time, I'm aware that many African Americans are becoming much more sober-minded in politics now, much more rational. When I say sober, not given to extremist right, the extremist left anymore. They're not given. They realize that the new world that we are seeing where we have to share with other people, one nation can't just grow and grow and grow heavy while other people are starving and being deprived. So African-Americans now who have an interest in politics, they're recognizing that. So the Republican Party will be getting more African-Americans over to their side. I do believe that. And really I'm one that's close to going to their side. But I can't because I can't go to their side because I think there's more opportunity for conservative African-Americans.
Yes. I think I can't go to the Republican side because I believe there are more opportunities for a conservative thinkers in the African-American community to better our condition of our people, the Black community life, the neighborhood life of Black Americans by remaining Democrats than by becoming Republicans. And it's because, I repeat, that Democrats are not looking too closely at how far to the left you are. They just don't want you to become Republican, that's why.
Interviewer:
You've in an interview back in, I think it was the late eighties you'd said that now African-Americans can rely on the courts to defend their rights. That was a statement that you made before Rodney King. In the wake of the Rodney King trial when many African Americans and many Americans of all backgrounds felt that the courts did not do a sufficient job of punishing those guilty of mistreating African Americans. Do you still have the same faith that African Americans can simply count on the courts to do the right thing?
IWDM:
Yes. Yes, I do. And even more so now. Innocence or a belief that we should do the right thing. There are always a number of people in every community, white, Black, Indian, and Arab, whatever, who are going to stay with that. They are going to stay with that belief that we should do the right thing. But as conditions change for life and opportunities, you'll find people changing too. Many will change too. Not that innocent group, but many others will look at circumstances and want to get ahead in the world, they'll start changing with the weather. With the weather. But I believe that conditions for us are better now than they were before Rodney King.
The conditions are improving for the government being more trustworthy when it comes to Black interest. Our interests of Blacks and our betterment here in America and the betterment of the African American people have become better because of the growing number of non-whites we have in this society, it's increasing. People are migrating here and the land is changing, as Ebony said in one of it's yearly issues, The Coloring America or something like that. I think the headlines said The Coloring of America. And as the President Clinton is saying, and when he's meeting with the clergy, that America is becoming a place of different races, different nationalities. Whereas it used to be mostly a white country, the country of the white people, now it's become Black and white. It's changing from Black and white to being a colorful nation of many different colors of people. So, because of this change, our government too is situated better to defend the rights of all citizens.
Because the government is not looking at White and Black anymore. But this also means this change also means that the Black has to firm up and become more adults. Because if you just come with the same milk, asking for the same milk bottle to be put in your mouth with the nipple on it and crying like a baby who needs a diaper change, you're not going to get any response from this new government that's looking at these new people. Many of them are industrious and they want to start from scratch. They've come from poverty and they want to build their life in America.
So, the government looking at all of these different groups now and look and say, well, "We still got a spoilt baby here, and something has to..." They have to do something to correct this thing. So, Blacks have a better situation with the government now for us to realize freedom and opportunities in this big country. But also we should realize too that these other citizens who are competing for progress in this great society, the government is looking at them too. And if we don't firm up and become a little more rugged than we have been, that we are going to be ignored more and more.
Interviewer:
Now, most of my readers will be very surprised to find that the majority of Black Muslims in America follow you rather than Minister Farrakhan. Can you speak a little bit about the areas in which you and Minister Farrakhan have the same ideas and areas in which you have disagreements?
IWDM:
Okay, we have the same idea for improvement of I would say the mind of African American people. Farrakhan believes that we need change in the way we think. And I believe too that we need serious changes in the way we think. We should normalize our thinking as a social group or as a racial group. And normalize our thinking means that we should not look outside for help that's inside. We should first turn to help that's inside and then to help that's outside. When we don't have any more help coming from the inside, we should only go and ask other people to help us. And we've done everything we could to help ourself. That's a teaching along the lines of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad, and that's Farrakhan's position. That's my position.
But I think except for that, because even Farrakhan he wants to help all the youngsters, he want our young men to take charge of their lives and be responsible for their neighborhoods and for their families to be responsible for the family and et cetera. He wants that, but he wants it in the name of Black Pride. And I think in the long run you lose that energy.
It'll fail everybody, not just Black. It'll fail any people, if they do something in the name of their color or their race in the long run, it's going to fail. That energy is going to fail them. It's going to die out. So I don't see myself agreeing with Farrakhan and joining him in any program to help our youth. Because I think the way to help our youth is to connect them back with their human energy, with their progressive human energy. Yes, the human being that says, I'm never as good as I should be. I'm never as perfect as I should be. I'm never as charitable as I should be, but always looking for more room and more room to do good and to contribute to the betterment of society. So, if Farrakhan was situated in humanity and faith in G-d, then I could walk a long way with Farrakhan.
In fact, I would tell him, why don't we join each other? Why don't you, since you're an electrifying speaker, why don't you be our politician? Why don't you head up this human service effort here? Community service effort here. Pardon me. Why don't you head up this Community service? You can attract the people. You are a powerful speaker. You have the magnetism and everything. But he's not in the right condition and I think he's troubled. I think he's troubled because I think denial of freedom to his human spirit is something that affects the soul and stays with the soul. So I think Farrakhan is now a man that's having two spirits in him and they warring with each other. One is the spirit to reclaim his humanity and the other one is the spirit to stay popular.
Interviewer:
Do you see his vision of Islam as really being Islam?
IWDM:
No. His vision of Islam is not existing. He'd have to have a new condition in himself. He had to come into a new frame of mind in order to see Islam. He can't see Islam.
Interviewer:
So, would you say he's not really a Muslim?
IWDM:
No, he's not a Muslim. How can he be a Muslim when he doesn't follow the Qur'an and the Prophet Muhammad, Peace be Upon him? He follow his own mind. He follow his own thinking.
Interviewer:
What specific teachings would he have to give up to be a true Muslim in your view?
IWDM:
He would have to give up the religion that he got from The Honorable Elijah Muhammad. That's what he'd have to give up.
Interviewer:
And do you think there's any chance of that happening?
IWDM:
I pray for it. I hope for it. I pray for it, but I don't expect it because all that we've done, you know. We've met with him and we've talked with him. We met with him based in Saudi Arabia, World Muslim League met with him. Leaders, leading thinkers in Islam from around the world have met with him. And sometimes he seemed to be in a perfect agreement with the right way. But when he goes back to do his work, his work doesn't change. His work is the same almost. There's hope for his people and I think there's hope for his people is owing somewhat to Farrakhan being a very intelligent man. He's not stupid. Farrakhan is an intelligent man. He's an educated man too.
I'm not. I'm not formally educated that much. So, I think a lot of the better opportunities, chances are, the better chances now that exist for followers of Farrakhan to come into real Islam is owing to Farrakhan being an intelligent and educated man. So, he knows that he has to not completely separate from the Muslim world because there's opportunities for him to gain materially from claiming he is with the Muslim world. From Gaddafi. He's Gaddafi. He's a unique creation. But Gaddafi is a Muslim and Gaddafi is for Islam. So, if Farrakhan keeps coming to Gaddafi for money or for assistance, financial assistance, Gaddafi is going to continue to hold that money out as a carrot to get Farrakhan to become more Islamic. And Farrakhan knows that. I understand that he went to Mecca on his world tour, so he knows if he goes there, he's going to have to pretend that he has an interest in one day bringing his people in line with Islam.
So that helps. He has to come back home and he has to tell his people, "Well, we need Arabic classes and we need to learn how to say our prayers correctly". So that's good. Farrakhan is helping his followers to become acquainted with Islam, with real Islam because of his interests in gaining financial help from Islamic countries.
Interviewer:
You've made a very good point around the time of the Gulf War though, in distinguishing between real Islam and simply political leaders, possibly in the Arab world, possibly anywhere in the world who use Islam for their political ends, just as say, Saddam Hussein, who you were very clearly against in the Gulf War, when it served his interests, he put himself forward as the champion of secularism against Islam in Iran. And then when it served his image, he went back and said he was for Islam.
IWDM:
That's right.
Interviewer:
Do you see this going on as well throughout the world of leaders in various countries simply using Islam for their own political lands?
IWDM:
Yes. I meet with what we call Scholars of Islam, members of the Ulema, the Scholars of Islam, and with some pious Imams. And I find that both the intellectual-minded Muslim leaders and the spiritual-minded Muslim leaders are saying the same thing about the conditions of Islamic nations. And they're saying that there is no Islamic nation. That's what they say. There is no Islamic nation. We have Muslims but no Islamic nation. And they're saying it's because these leaders, they are following a nationalist tradition and not an Islamic tradition. The Egyptian, he has his attachment to Egypt interests and the other national leader will have his attachment to his nation's national interests. And he will be playing on the national interest sensitivities in subjects, in his constituents rather than playing on their Islamic sensitivities or Islamic interests.
So, they're saying that we can't expect Islamic nations to go anywhere with Islam until they come back to Islam and see G-d first and faith first and then serve a faith community. Yes. So, I agree with them that that's the condition of the world. That's the condition of Islamic world. That these leaders have been responding to I would say the superiority of the West, the domination of the West.
That's what they see as the domination of the West. They've been responding to that, are reacting to that more than planning the future for a faith community. Muslims are faith community. So instead of planning to helping the faith community overcome its set back, because we've been set back. They come into power and then they become demagogues. They play on the emotional buttons of the members in their constituency.
Interviewer:
I've just returned from Indonesia where I was fortunate enough to meet Abdul Rahman Wahid and Amin Rice, two Muslim leaders who between them has something like 70 million followers. Both of them put forward a vision of Islam that is very, very much in congruence with your own. A very tolerant, open-minded, open view of Islam. Why do you feel it is that on the world stage, Western people tend to take say the Taliban or Ayatollah Khomeini as the voice of Islam rather than people like Abdul Rahman Wahid? And on the domestic scene, they tend to look at Louis Farrakhan as the voice of American Islam rather than someone like you who has a much larger following. Could you speak a little bit about that phenomenon of the public sort of seeking out the most extreme leaders rather than the most representative leaders?
IWDM:
Yeah. Well, I think we have some very good leaders, very sincere leaders, but I believe that our leaders are not looking at what is happening outside of our awareness. They're looking at what is happening inside of our awareness. So, they're not going to address those two great individuals that you mentioned that you met in Indonesia. They're not interested in them because they're not inside our awareness. But Farrakhan is, Gaddafi is, the Taliban is, you see? So that's what they're going to address. I think that's the answer. And the other part of the answer is I'm thinking about leaders now in the political scene, but the other part of the answer is that these people are not yet popular. So they're not going to sell newspapers, they're not going to raise up the ratings, TV ratings. So why be bothered with them? So what they need to do, they need to create a disturbance so somebody would know them.
Interviewer:
Well now, what I'm hoping to do with this article, since it's slated to be a cover and it's an opportunity to, I hope, really get the message out for the leaders who are.... One of your followers in Washington referred to you as a quiet storm, making a disturbance, but making it quietly. What are the misconceptions about Islam here in America or around the world? What are the things that you wish the media would say but that it hasn't been saying? Here's, I mean your opportunity. Open question as kind of a closing question. Open table for you, what message would you like to get out to the American people that hasn't gotten out enough?
IWDM:
That Muslims are human beings and our religion has contributed to the same fine human sensitivities that are appreciated by Christians, Jews, and all the people that America accept as being good neighbors, you see? So, I would like for them to see us as good neighbors and that a Muslim who's true to his religion is a good neighbor and a Muslim who's true to his religion believes very, very, very nearly the same way that Christian believes as a religious person. And we are natural allies, not natural enemies. Any true Muslim and true Christian when you look at what we say we believe in the articles of faith for us, you will see that we should be natural, spiritual allies, not natural enemies. And they should realize that the Crusades took Islam off course, took Muslims off course, and took Christians off course, and we're all trying to recover.
Interviewer:
Well Imam, thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me. I'm sure my readers will be enlightened by what you've told me and I know I certainly have been.
IWDM:
Well, thank you. Thank you very much for the opportunity.
Interviewer:
Thank you.
IWDM:
And I'm going to get some more subscriptions for my friends.
Speaker 1:
For more on the Ministry of Imam W Deen Mohammed, Muslim American spokesman, call 1-708-201-9692. Or write Ministry of W Deen Mohammed Post Office Box 1061. Calumet City, Illinois 60409. For Muslim Journal see local distributor. For WDM Publications call 1-708-862-7733. Or write, Post Office Box 1944. Calumet City, Illinois 60409. And thanks for listening.



