03/31/1989
IWDM Study Library
IWDM Interview with Mike Cuthbert

By Imam W. Deen Mohammed

Deen Mohammed: He was a man who had great pride but he couldn't take care of his family, so he drank heavily. He met this mystic who was called Fard Mohammed or WF Fard and he accepted his teachings because of the chance to not go to Welfare and have soup and you know. He accepted it and he saw merit in his teachings. He saw a way to bring his people in some dignity. I think my father always had some problems with many things that his mystic teacher taught him. As the years passed and he got more established financially, he began to play down the importance of some of those dangerous mystical things that were in our teachings.
I remember us having a little pamphlet that was similar in nature to the Green book Mao Tse-Tung's book et cetera. We used to have a pamphlet and my father finally got fed up with all of it. He said, "You don't know how to handle that. You don't know how to understand it." He said, "I'm taking those things out of circulation." He recalled them all out of circulation. Nobody had those little things. He would carry them like they were holy pieces of Scripture from Heaven, a scroll from Heaven, but he stopped it all. Finally, he began to stress business. He stopped stressing a lot of that old stuff and he starts stressing business.
"You have to dignify yourself. You have to be successful, disciplined and have business and be successful in the world." He starts stressing those things, but he told me. He said, "Son, Elijah Mohammed, my father." He knew I was different with him at the time. This was much later. He said, "Son, after man has presented himself in a certain way before people who really believe in him for a long time as I have been doing it, it's hard for that man to tell those people that it all wasn't correct." Now, I didn't bother that, I wasn't the kind to pry. I was so happy to hear him say that until I was too nervous to ask the question or to say any more about it. I just took that and I left with that. I feel very good.
Mike Cuthbert: My guest is Deen Mohammed. He's an Imam of the Muslim Americans and he's a moderate as they say in, if you have to put a label on someone I suppose, it'll be helping us understand the American Muslim world. Probably the fastest growing religious affiliation in this country. Both in terms of African Americans who are converting to Islam and also Islamic or Muslim immigrants to the United States. We invite you to talk with Imam Deen Mohammed at 885-8850 if you're here in Washington. If you're outside the district, our number is 1-202-885-8855. We'll open the phones to you and hope that you'll enjoy talking with Deen Mohammed.
Let's go first to Ann Arbor, Michigan. Go blue. Good evening, Godfrey.
Godfrey: Hello, how are you?
Mike: Very good sir, go ahead.
Godfrey: I have a question for the Imam.
Mike: Yes, indeed.
Godfrey: I have a problem with the recent Salman Rushdie incident and the Satanic Verses. Back in 1985, there was a gentleman in the Sudan, his name escapes me now, who was killed because he wrote what was really a reformist work with respect to the Quran. Yet, here's a guy, Salman Rushdie who was from all indications has clearly insulted the fundamental beliefs of Islamic people. He's been threatened. Well, we don't know that for a fact.
I don't speak Farsi or something. That's what the press said that he's been threatened. Yet it's causing such a national outrage. He has been anyone above all bunch of situations in history, where freedom of speech is just a farce. Most recently an artist in Chicago painted a flag or something on a floor was up there. People were up in arms against that. Isn't that strange that some of us in the West can't see that the same fervor with which we hold on to a Constitution or something like that is the same fervor with which other people may hold on to the Quran? I want to understand these dichotomies. Can you shed some light on that for me, please?
Deen Mohammed: I don't claim to be a genius. I will simply say that I do recognize that we have a lot of contradictions in our life, that America being as diversified as it is, we can expect some opinions to rise to the forefront and get attention. That may not be the opinion that most of the American people would choose, would identify with if they had enough to seriously think about it.
I would say, first of all, that I think the position that that book should not be banned, because of any First Amendment right is hypocritical. Because I know a book by Franz Fanon, called The Wretched of the Earth and in my opinion, he was just appealing to descendants of Africa to accept responsibility for their own lives, although he did call Western European man, the wretched of the earth and that book was banned. That book was banned in America.
I do know of books that were banned in the interest of the American peace or American people. I would think that a holy book should be respected by Christian America. I would have thought that we would have got great support from the American people, from the American establishment for the banning of that book.
Godfrey: What about the death sentence on Rushdie though?
Deen Mohammed: That's a real problem. I believe myself and I'm speaking for myself, although I identify with about 48 Nations that have joined in and refuse to accept that Salman Rushdie should be killed. Personally, I think that many of us, the cost of now the centuries of our faith, of the presence of foreign power in the Muslim land. The influence of those foreign powers on Muslim Schools, Muslim Education has caused Muslims be separated from their own religion.
I'm speaking of now insights into their own religion, and we're going to need more time to get out of these spirits of I would say Crusade. The Crusades, the Crescent against the Cross, or the Cross against the Crescent. We're going to need a lot of time to get out of that spirit and to get rid of that and to really study and look at our religion carefully again. When we do, I think we'll come to the same conclusion that I'm about to express here.
That is, my conclusion is that we are looking at what Allah says, Holy G-d Almighty says in the Quran to the Prophet that relates to time of war. During a time of war, if someone changes sides and join the enemy side, well even in civilized nations today, that person is court-martialed, maybe killed. Most likely he'll be killed. I think that's what we are looking at and confusing that with what many are claiming that if anyone was once that claimed the religion and then he rejects the religion, attacks the religion, he should be killed. I don't believe that.
The Prophet was attacked. The Prophet was accused by many people and he didn't seek those people out to kill them once he got force together, an army together.
Mike: My guest is Imam Deen Mohammed of the American Muslims. Let's go next to Dave in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Good evening sir, you're on the air.
Dave: Yes, good evening. I'd like to make just a little bit of a comment when the gentleman was talking about his father going shopping and "it was okay to buy Kosher meat from the Jew,". I'd like to know why the Muslims don't seem to like Jewish people when Jews have been in the forefront of civil rights and also the hiring of Muslims all through the years.
Deen Mohammed: Well, I know that there are many a strong faction of Muslims that are very bitter towards Jews. I think we have to understand that like we understand many other small factions that are bitter towards somebody. 
Mike: We should point out, your father publicly was very anti-Jewish.
Dave: Yes, he was.
Deen Mohammed: I wouldn't say so, not my father, no. No, he was anti American white man and the cost of the circumstances that were existing when he came into leadership. As those circumstances changed over the years, he became much milder.
Mike: 885-8850 is our number here locally and if you're calling from out of the Washington metropolitan area it's area code 202-885-8855. I'm Mike Cuthbert with Deen Mohammed, and let's go to John in Springfield, Virginia. Good evening John, you're on the air.
John: I'd like to clear something up for the Islamic people, the Jewish people, and the Christian people. All three faiths, Christians say they go by the New Testament, but Jesus was from a lineage of David. All three religions tie into Abraham, David and start with Adam and Eve. They're all interlocked then there shouldn't be any fighting between either one of these religious groups. The Islamic holy war really is not a war with guns and swords, but it's like the-- I'd say the Moors, if you want to be Islamic, you can't force another person to become Islamic. 
Imam: That's correct.
John: If you take a look at Spain and the Moors. When the Moors were in Spain, they didn't do a lot of killing of Christians. A lot of the Moorish temples and they still stay there today. What irritates me is that you'll find people like Ayatollah Khomeini, he's not really Islamic because the Quran doesn't say anything about killing people or about fighting the way this man says it does.
You really have to look at anybody in these religious groups who talk about fighting. Truly religious people do not fight the Jews or the Christians or Islamic people. They're religious people and they believe in one G-d, it's not several G-ds.
Mike: Yet through our time it seems that the Shia and the Sunni clash heads more often perhaps than the Baptists and the Catholics have through history. Is there a particular affiliation of most Americans or Afro-American Islamic or Muslims with either sect, the Shia or Sunni?
Deen Mohammed: The Sunni group-- really, I'm not satisfied with either one of these terms. Sunni Muslims are those that see their relatives and cousins and Khalifa, the one who came into rulership of the Prophet Ali, may G-d be pleased with him. As a person that was destined to come to the forefront and be the leader, successor to the Prophet so to speak. That the leadership would stay with him, stay in that family line.
His descendants would always be leaders. Well, most of the Muslims of the world, we don't accept that. The Shia people, they tend to be a little more, I would say antagonistic than most Sunni Muslims, antagonistic. That is that they seem to believe in pushing forward and looking for hot issues. They seem to look hot issues. As you said, there have been a lot of violence for Muslims, the Sunnis and the Shia. Most of us identify with the majority, the Sunnis are in the great majority. The Shia are small minority. The many hundreds of millions of Muslims are what we call Sunni Muslims. I think the appeal of the religion among African Americans is due mainly to two things maybe equally.
We believe in a path. We believe in the path that we have in Africa where Mali, Songhai, Timbuktu. Those places in history Muslims since the dawn of Al Islam, the religion of Islam on the continent of Africa. Have been a major influence on the continent of Africa. Knowing that many of us perhaps are drawn to religion because of that too. Because we look for identity. Many of us can't be satisfied with the culture that we have accepted in America. Many of us would like to have a culture of our own. We'd like more distinction as a ethnic group in this country and I think that's one side of the appeal. I think the real side of it is the fact that our religion emphasizes the unity.
I would say unitary outlook on creation, man, and everything. It solves for us this race problem and this idea about the superiority of one race over another. It appeals to our rational mind, our religion, the Quran, our begotten Quran and the Prophet in his teaching appeal to man to use his good senses, to be intelligent, to respect the gift of G-d that we have in our good human brain. I think that appeals too because somehow, we have just been made too emotional. I'm greatly indeed satisfied at this present time with the amount of emotionalism in African American people.
Mike: Let's go to Rhode Island. Jacky, good evening and welcome to WAMU FM in Washington.
Jacky: Hi.
Mike: Hi, Jacky.
Jacky: First I want to say all praise be to Allah. I'm happy to be speaking to Mr Muhammad. My question basically is, I've read the Quran from cover to cover. I understand it pretty well. One thing that sticks out of my mind is from what I've been told it's lawful for a man to have as many wives as he can afford. This to me doesn't make sense not so much because it's a law, but I feel like it was granted to men at that time by Mohammed to do this because there was so much in to worship idols, and it was like moreso a peace offering so that Allah say, "Well, if you stop worshiping idols and being so disobedient, then go ahead, you can have as many wives as you want."
For them to deal with the problem later on in life which is the over population in those countries like India and all those Islamic countries they deal with over population because they married more than one wife. How can you say that "One man can have many wives because his brother died or because anything."? That man is going to have five other daughters and he's going to have one son and there's still going to be more women than men and how does this ever equal out?
Mike: Okay, that's a good question, Imam, what do you say?
Deen Mohammed: Well, I'm monogamous by nature. I'm monogamous. That is I'm happiest with one woman, but the Holy Book does accept that there are strict conditions where man can have more than one wife. The limit is four. He cannot have as many as he wants, the limit is four and he shouldn't desire more than one. He shouldn't desire even the first wife just for physical reasons. It can't be just for sex or for her beauty, for her physical beauty.
It has to be for social reason. It has to be social reasons, social foundation. He has to have an interest in the social family life and see that-- For instance, if a man has a wife and she's going in age, he's still youthful and she-- See, we can't look at just the makeup of the Western woman or the American woman. We have to understand that there're cultures and some of them are not Muslims that accepts that a man can have more than wife under certain strict conditions.
For Muslims, the grounds for polygamy are very strict. I would caution any African American in this country, if he wants to really obey his religion, to really be careful when he stops looking at another woman to take her as a wife because I don't think he qualifies. You first have to have enough money to take of more than one and give them the same treatment. If he buys one a home, he should buy the other one a home. He can't buy one a home and sleep the other one in his car.
Mike: You mentioned too in your book Focus on Al Islam, that you believe that as Islam gets used to anti colonialism or non colonialism that the lot of women is inevitable going to improve and you see signs that that's already happening. Whereas there are those who interpret the lot of woman's still as awful in Islam, you see it as improving?
Deen Mohammed: Its improving. Its definitely improving. If we studied the lot of woman, the condition of women, during the days of our Prophet, peace be upon him, we will see that his teaching, the Quran, the Holy Book and the Prophets teachings and leadership brought the woman to a much higher status in society. For example, during those times a man would look at the birth of a female as a shame on him. The birth of a male, pride. Female, shame. For economic reasons, they would sacrifice, kill female.
The verse comes in the Holy Book saying, And the female child for what was she buried alive. The Prophet, he taught the men that if any man will educate two daughters, he will earn paradise. G-d will give him paradise. I think that that strong encouragement to educate their daughters is the best way to liberate women.
Mike: Youre telling me that Islam has had its problems with interpreters of the Holy Book like Christianity has?
Deen Mohammed: Yes. Perhaps even worse, worse problem we have had.
Mike: [laughs] Lets go out to the sunny shores of Honolulu, Hawaii. Good afternoon, Jim. Youre on WAMU all the way in Washington.
Jim: Mike, how are you doing?
Mike: Very good, Jim.
Jim: peace man, thank you.
Mike: You bet.
Jim: For Mohammed, theres a qoute in Christianity, be baptized or be slain. Islamic religion is the first religion in the world that said, You can be what you like. If youre Christian, well build the church. If youre Jewish, well help build the synagogue. Ayatollah Hominy right now is killing members of Bahai faith. Bahaullah was born in Tehran. Do you agree with what he is doing? If you dont, what are you doing to fight it?
Deen Mohammed: Well, in a way I think we are doing something about it to fight that. What we do is, come with the rational and high moral standards of our religion. We stress that, we try to get as much audience as we possibly can in the African American community. Also, we hope to get the opportunities like we have now to address the general community of America. We do our best to present the religion in its right form, the right image of the religion. I think thats the best we can offer right now. If I had money and power, perhaps I would be doing much more.
Mike: That leads us to a question as to the extent of power of the African American Islamic community in the international Islamic community, how much are you listened to yet or are you too small and too tentative?
Deen Mohammed: I think yes, were too small. By that, I mean we dont have material means. Luckily right now, we have some fine people, educated people. They have the right attitude toward our religion and a right attitude toward the reality that we have of the world. [chuckles] I think we could really go places if we had more material support, but we dont have it. We would like to have our own national radio program. We would like to have a TV program to present the religion as we believe it should be presented and to address the problems of all human beings. We would like to have that. We are working toward it. We got business people that are growing now.
I see maybe in the next five or ten years, we might have enough financial means to do the kind of job that should be done right now. I would say the problem in the past was that we were attracting too many people who were looking at themselves as just losers. Now we are looking at people-- Its because of the change in our way of looking at the religion. I mean, in all of America, not just us. We are looking at the religion and a way to see what it offers in terms of things that will really help a human being be a better human being.
Whereas before, we were looking at it as a black mans religion, as a dress that we could take on and have a new sense of identity and greatness, whether the substance was there or not. We attracted a lot of people who didnt have very much to offer because they were not, I would say those who are more fortunate to have better cultural background and better education. Now we're realizing theres a different influx now.
Mike: Im Mike Cuthbert. Were here at WAMU. My guest is Imam W Deen Mohammed, spokesman for the American Muslims. Lets go up I-95 almost the Baltimore to Columbia, Maryland. Good evening Diane, youre on the air.
Diane: Hi Mike, how you doing?
Mike: Very good.
Diane: Amazing. Well as to Mohammed, all praise to Allah, how are you?
Deen Mohammed: Fine, thank you.
Diane: Good. I do have two questions. The first part is, in the past, not you personally but people from your aspect of the Muslim religion has always been denounced Minister Farrakhan. Ive always heard on the other side, what Ive heard Minister Farrakhan speak at different places in Washington or Baltimore, he has never denounced or praised, hes always considered you all as one and as his brothers. Why is there division in your speaking when youre talking about each other? Number two is how do you feel about him trying to build his own pyramid? I would say as far as selling toothpaste and all kinds of personal needs to gain capital?
He has gained a lot of money to do a lot of things to form his own. How do you feel about that and the way hes going about it? I'd like to have your response to that.
Mike: Okay.
Deen Mohammed: Yes, thank you. [clears throat] As for the first question, when Im asked if there are differences, I say yes, there are differences and those differences are very real. They are not differences in our claim to believe in the Quran and in the Prophet. Those are not the differences Im talking about. I explained that they are differences that are existing mainly because of the great difference in the makeup of the two persons, myself and Farrakhan. His character is very different than mine. I think hes more excited over economics than he is over what G-d wants for our hearts and our souls.
I think thats what pushed him in the image that hes in and makes him stand out as being very different from myself. No matter what kind of bad waves Im going to send out, I have to tell the truth. There are great differences. There are things that he will say about himself in praising himself or in condemning others that I cant be in any way be associated with. As for the second part of the question, we congratulate him. We appreciate the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, the late leader, for his courage to invite us and encourage us to move economically, to grow financially and be responsible in this country, for more than just a little cheap carefree life.
We appreciate him, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and we appreciate Minister Farrakhan. We appreciate the hundreds and hundreds of businessmen, Muslims that we have throughout America who are following in the best tradition of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad's economic program. I myself, Im a preacher, but I think of myself also as a businessman. I think when I come before people, I shouldnt present business as our religion. Its not quite our religion. Its just one aspect.
Mike: Lets go next to Nashville, Tennessee with Imam Deen Mohammed. Ray, good evening, youre on the air.
Ray: Yes, Id like to follow up on the previous callers call about Louis Farrakhan. I would like to know if the Imam feels that Louis Farrakhan had anything to do whatsoever with the murder of Malcolm X.
Deen Mohammed: Thats a tricky question. [laughs] To ask me if I think he had anything to do with it, its just like asking me if any minister of Honorable Elijah Muhammad had anything to do with it. That would be the same question. In my opinion, the question could be, did any of the Honorable Elijah Muhammads ministers have anything to do with it? My answer would be yes because they contributed to the atmosphere that made possible his assassination.
Ray: Okay, thats what I'd like to know.
Mike: Okay.
Ray: Bye-bye.
Mike: Thank you, Ray. Lets go to Gary, Indiana. Sam Aya, good evening.
Samaya: Okay, good evening. Samaya, thats my name.
Mike: Oh, all right.
Samaya: Thats okay. I'm just a little bit nervous here but I'm just so happy to see such a man as Mr. Muhammad on. I think he's a courageous leader and he just doesn't get enough media attention. There are so many misconceptions about Al- Islam and this kind of program helps to dispel the misconceptions because Mr. Muhammad just doesn't speak for Muslims, he speaks for all good people. I think that's really the bottom line. His comments bring all good people together regardless of what their religious labels are. I'd like to commend him for his selfless works throughout the years.
Deen Mohammed: That makes me feel very good. Thank you very much.
Samaya: Thank you, and thank you, sir, for having such a great man on your program.
Mike: Thank you for calling. It's our pleasure. 885-8850 is our number here in the district. Outside the district, area code 202-885-8855. This is the Mike Cuthbert Show coming to you from the campus of the American University on WAMU FM. This broadcast to the Mike Cuthbert Show is made possible in part by Yes Bookshop, specializing in books and videos on Inner Growth, Fine Arts, Travel, and Asia. Located in Georgetown at 1035 31st Street below the CNO Canal. [chuckles] Don't get confused, it's not under the water in the CNO Canal. It's a very lovely place.
Let's go to . Matthew, good evening. You're on WAMU-FM and C-SPAN.
Matthew: Yes, thank you. I think the program is great and I echo the sentiments of the last speaker I really appreciate your speaker very much. One thing I heard him say, he said that the Wretched of the Earth was banned in the West or something like that. I wondered because it's always available whenever I wanted to use it or recommend it to anyone.
Deen Mohammed: Yes, I recall receiving a copy from overseas and I read in the wording of the book that the book had been banned.
Matthew: Where?
Deen Mohammed: In the United States.
Matthew: Man, a book be banned in the United States? That's ridiculous.
Mike: Well, lots of books have been banned in the United States.
Matthew: When was it ever banned? What book? You mean like Joyce's Ulysses or something?
Mike: Yes.
Matthew: It was always available all through the '60s anytime anyone wanted it, libraries, paper back.
Deen Mohammed: Yes, but like that, like contraband, you see.
Matthew: No. It's in bibliographies. It was freely circulated in university. In education department, they'd recommend it to each other.
Mike: I don't recall personally if the book ever had a banning history.
Matthew: No, it didn't as far as I know because it was commonly available in graduate groups. Anybody who's seriously intellectual about it would easily get it anywhere.
Mike: That is the problem though, Imam, that we have. When we talk about the insult to the religion of Islam, we must interpret it from the view point of a diverse culture which is used to being insulted. Everyone in the United States, in fact, I've often said, "If you haven't been insulted in this country, probably nobody really likes you."
[laughter]
Mike: I guess my problem with the death sentence is there is no way an American dares support a death sentence for thought because his thought can be the next to be censored. In this society, your mind, as you have pointed out several times this evening, is who you are. Is what you are. If you feel restrained from expressing yourself, there is no citizenship, there is no soul in this country.
Deen Mohammed: That's true. I believe when the Holy Book, G-d says in the Holy Book in the Quran, "Here is the way. Whoever chooses to follow it, let him and whoever does not, let him refuse." That's what I believe in. It's simply put in the Quran.
Mike: Let's go up to Raleigh, North Carolina or down rather. Vince, good evening. You're at WAMU FM in Washington.
Vince: Good evening. Assalaamualaikum, Brother Imam.
Deen Mohammed: Walaikum Salam.
Vince: As one who has seen and been a part of the transition of the nation of Islam from a black nationalist movement to a true religious community, do you feel that there were any ideas from the nationalistic time that might be useful to the state of African Americans today? My second question also is, there is no racism in Islam but do you feel as though, with that in mind, should a particular group of people not take pride in their heritage or the particular culture that they might come from? Does Islam just cancel that out altogether? I asked two questions there.
Deen Mohammed: I feel that the religion as taught by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad was sincere as it came from the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. It was sincere especially for the first 35 years more of the movement. As the appetite grew for material things, and the members gained a lot of exposures, what they thought was good exposure for their numbers, their militant numbers, their militant posture, I think what happened is that we got a little excited about our own power and greatness. A lot of the virtues that were instilled in us over a period of about 35 years begin to go out the window.
The Honorable Elijah Muhammad stressing decency, honest work, honest day at work no matter who you work for. Whether he be black or white, an honest day's work, respect for everybody. Those things are still valued in our religion, they are in the Holy Book and we still value them. The importance of industry in one's life, wanting to make an honest dollar, wanting to build the opportunity for yourself and also for other people, to be employed, business that I'm thinking of. All of these in line with the teachings of our Holy Book.
I think we should not turn our back on that but rather appreciate the Honorable Elijah Muhammad calling us to that and know that those ideas and values are accepted.
Not only accepted but encouraged in our religion. The Holy Book encourage that. We should also understand, the second question, that G-d wanted to have distinction. He said He made us nations, tribes, and families, and nations that we may know each other and respect each other, not despise one another. At the same time, G-d tells us that He is the one who gave us our distinct features. He made the African look African, He made the European look European, the Japanese, Asia, etcetera. He made all of us, He gave us this look.
These are the distinctions that are in creation of man and we have to accept them and believe that He made all of us excellent and beautiful.
The person with the typical African features, according to my understanding of our Holy Book and the teachings of the Prophet is to understand that G-d created him beautiful and excellent. The same thing for the European, no matter how pale he is and no matter how sharp his features, we have to understand that that is beautiful and that is excellent. So, all of us have to be satisfied with what G-d has made us in our creation, what he has created us that is G-d's creation. We have to be satisfied with what we create ourselves. We recreate ourselves and make monsters of ourselves.
I'm against racism and against this own excitement over one's ethnic identity. This excitement over one's ethnic identity or racial identity, I'm against that. At the same time, I encourage our people to appreciate Honorable Elijah Muhammad, teaching us to have a sense of ethnic unity, a sense of racial unity and to build. Is not good sense for our people to walk away from that sense of ethnic unity, our group identity. We should appreciate that sense of group identity and we should try to improve upon our group image so that we will be more comfortable with ourselves in our own eyes and so that we will be more comfortable that the way of the people of the world look at us.
I would say in conclusion that we do have a need to keep that sense of ethnicity and the build on the cultural identity of the African American people.
Mike: Imam W Deen Muhammad has been my guest here on WAMU FM. We thank you very much for being with us tonight. It's a perfect note on which to end.
Deen Mohammed: Thank you.
Mike: Coming up next is As It Happens for you WAMU listeners. Next week at the Mike Cuthbert Show, we'll be talking about foreign policy and human rights with Paula Dobriansky. Paul Dickson will celebrate the opening of baseball season. He's got a new Dickson baseball dictionary out, we'll have fun with him. The Capitol Steps will be here with a special half-hour
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