2001
IWDM Study Library
IWDM Interview with the Communicator

By Imam W. Deen Mohammed
0:00:00 Wali: Communicating positive thoughts and music with a message, and we're deeply, deeply humbled and honored to be in the presence of Imam Warith Deen Mohammed, Imam WD Mohammed, the leader of the Muslim American Society, and we say, peace be unto you, As-salamu Alaykum, Brother Imam.
0:00:16 Warith Deen Mohammed: Peace be unto you, Wali, As-salamu Alaykum.
0:00:18 Wali: Alaikum-As-salaam. And thank you so much for being with us today. I have so many questions I wanna just ask, so I'm just gonna go right into it. [laughter] You're a world leader, you're all... You've been all over the world, you've met some of the kings and queens and dignitaries from all over the world, and the question I ask is about world peace. This is the biggest thing, we're talking about world peace, and in your travels and of course in the reading in the Scriptures, world peace, is that a reality today in the times that we're living in now? What do you think about world peace?
0:00:58 IWDM: I think we are closer to world peace than we have ever been in the history of mankind on this planet.
0:01:07 Wali: That's a great statement there. Because there's so much now you hear about negativity, about these fightings going on all over the world, about the Middle East conflict, about the Palestinian and the Israelis and all of that. There is a glue that needs to be brought together, and can you expound on that in terms of bringing everybody together?
0:01:33 IWDM: Yes. If it wasn't for politics, there wouldn't be these problems. These problems are not caused by religion. It's caused by politics. It's caused by government leaders.
0:01:47 Wali: Yes.
0:01:49 IWDM: And the people that haven't been freed, they don't have a concept of government and human rights that has permitted them to make the progress that Europe and America has made, and few other places. So they are really not, in my opinion, they are not as politically, socially and politically evolved as we are. Not to say they are primitive, but I'm saying that they are not educated as we are. And I think that's the main problem. These leaders can manipulate them, they can keep their loyalty because they are not educated in the politics and they are not knowing their humanity as they should.
0:02:50 Wali: Yes.
0:02:51 IWDM: When you know your humanity, you value your personal life and the life of other people like you, of the human beings, and then you can't have demagogues or dictators dictating a way of life that is against your human interest. So we live in a world that is advanced, politically and socially, and the part of the world we call the third world, these countries that are not industrialized countries, just recently coming into oil and whatever, and experiencing wealth, these countries are not socially evolved and politically evolved as we are. So it's gonna take time for their publics to be educated, and I think the pressure is on them, it's very, very, very very demanding on them now, and they can't ignore the civilized world. And I'm saying this, not to say that they're not civilized because in many ways, some of those people of the third world are more civilized than the average American citizen in many ways.
0:04:03 Wali: Yes.
0:04:04 IWDM: But when it comes to the world politics and governments and human rights, they are not as informed as we are.
0:04:11 Wali: Yeah. So the key, again, bringing it back to the family, community, that's a worldwide situation, that's a worldwide concern, and how important is that in the world, the family life, the family and community life?
0:04:26 IWDM: It's extremely important. As you know, in our holy book, G-d says family has first rights in the book of G-d. Family is first. And Saudi Arabia is one country where family, I would say, value and consciousness is very, very high, very, very high. They think of themself as family first. And, well, I would say, second to thinking of themselves as Muslims, they think of themselves as family, and they have a strong family order there in Saudi Arabia. I've said that to say this, family is good, but anything can be taken to the extreme.
0:05:14 Wali: Yes.
0:05:15 IWDM: Yes. The family of humanity is what G-d wants us to see in Islam. And if we concentrate too much on our ethnic family, then we will go outside of the circle of Islam.
0:05:33 Wali: Yes, in terms of what the way Allah wants it to be...
0:05:37 IWDM: Yes.
0:05:37 Wali: Going by his dictation, right.
0:05:38 IWDM: Yes, the family is the family of mankind, as it is for the people of the book Jews and Christians.
0:05:45 Wali: Why is that you think that the family has just been so scattered and splintered here in America, especially in the inner city, especially or particularly African-American community?
0:06:00 IWDM: This is not a nice one for me. Commercialism, commercializing.
0:06:05 Wali: Yes.
0:06:06 IWDM: The business people, they have access to our families by way of the media, television is the strongest, and they come into our house and they do not ask us to permit them to talk to our little children.
0:06:21 Wali: They just walk right into the house. [chuckle]
0:06:23 IWDM: Right, right.
0:06:24 Wali: Don't ask any questions, just...
0:06:25 IWDM: And talk directly, talk directly to my wife, talk directly to my little children...
0:06:30 Wali: And say anything they wanna say.
0:06:31 IWDM: And say anything they wanna say.
0:06:32 Wali: Right.
0:06:32 IWDM: Then I have the problem trying to tell my children, "No you can't have that."
0:06:36 Wali: Yes.
[chuckle]
0:06:38 Wali: And so that, again, dictating the society and again being on a warped situation then, because we seem to be going to another direction and not the direction to our Allah, not to G-d.
0:06:52 IWDM: Yes, family, as I said, when it comes to rights, family is first in the book of G-d. And I think that was revealed to Muhammad because in those days, there was also, in fact much worse than now, where the people were exploited by commercial people, by business people. Their lives were exploited, the workers were enslaved almost.
0:07:16 Wali: Yes.
0:07:17 IWDM: By the rich. So, I think that in the Quran, that is really addressing the family, immediate family, our small families that we have in our homes and our partners.
0:07:31 Wali: Yes.
0:07:31 IWDM: But it's also more importantly, it's addressing the family of mankind, and it is saying to the world that family is sacred, and the business world should not be allowed to exploit family ties and to divide family members. They don't have a plan to do that, but coming into my house, selling my son some gym shoes that I can't pay for.
0:08:02 Wali: Absolutely.
0:08:03 IWDM: You're dividing my son and me. And the wife, if she's strong, she can save us. I had a strong mother, as you know.
0:08:14 Wali: Yes.
0:08:14 IWDM: Your grandmother.
0:08:14 Wali: Yes. Grandma Anna.
0:08:15 IWDM: I had a strong mother. Yeah. They couldn't get to us.
0:08:18 Wali: No, no, not at all. [laughter] Not at all, not at all. Can we go back just to clear Muhammad, my grandmother and your mother.
0:08:29 IWDM: Yeah.
0:08:30 Wali: Getting back to that, again, a very, very strong example of parenting and a mother image, and of course, your father also.
0:08:40 IWDM: Yeah.
0:08:40 Wali: Again, the mother being there within the home every day...
0:08:43 IWDM: Oh yeah.
0:08:44 Wali: Some of the examples, again, that maybe you can share with us of some of the things of you coming up under your mother and some of the things that needed to... That helped to mold you to be WD Muhammad today?
0:08:56 IWDM: Yes. Well, my mother raised us, and I believe the oldest, Emmanuel.
0:09:05 Wali: Yes.
0:09:06 IWDM: He perhaps was the only one that was a teenager and was giving some help to my mother. The rest of us, except for my older sisters, Ethel and Lottie and Maria, the rest of us we were young, very young, and we were raised by our mother because our father was you know...
0:09:26 Wali: Yes.
0:09:26 IWDM: He was arrested and chased by enemies that were members of the Nation of Islam, but didn't agree with him on that he should be the leader, so that was the division, and then after that, he was troubled with... And he was trying to build up temples all around America, so he wasn't in the house with us. I didn't know my father as a father in the house until I was about 14 years old when he was released from his sentence of refusing the draft to go to the army. So my mother was a boss, and my father was more present in the house during those years than he was when he returned.
0:10:12 Wali: Alright.
0:10:12 IWDM: When he returned, he relaxed things, and we didn't feel as strong his presence there as it did under momma.
0:10:21 Wali: Right.
0:10:21 IWDM: Momma would say, "I'm gonna... You're gonna be raised the way your father wants you to be raised or I'm gonna kill you myself."
[laughter]
0:10:33 Wali: She was rough.
0:10:35 IWDM: Yeah. She was obedient.
0:10:36 Wali: Yes, yes.
0:10:38 IWDM: She was obedient. She obeyed her husband.
0:10:39 Wali: Yes, yes. And she made sure that everything was in order.
0:10:43 IWDM: Yes, and he was not just a father to us, he was a religious leader.
0:10:47 Wali: Yes. Now, how did you separate the two, or did you, with your father?
0:10:52 IWDM: It was very difficult. When he bought me some candy, that's when I saw the separation.
[laughter]
0:10:57 Wali: Right. There you see the separation.
[chuckle]
0:11:06 Wali: Given my own and my own experience of that, I could say the same thing, it was kinda hard...
[chuckle]
0:11:12 Wali: To separate grandpa from the messenger of Allah.
0:11:18 IWDM: I know. I know. No, no.
0:11:18 Wali: It was kinda hard to do that. You get those very, very personal moments. It was like you would just explode with so much glee and happiness 'cause you didn't see that too much.
0:11:30 IWDM: But he'd say, "why don't you boys get up and take that trash out." It wasn't daddy talking, it was the messenger of Allah talking.
[laughter]
0:11:39 Wali: That's right. It wasn't just Elijah Muhammad, it was... It was the messenger of Allah speaking.
0:11:45 IWDM: Yeah.
0:11:45 Wali: That's right.
[laughter]
0:11:46 Wali: So, that again... That had a very strong impact. And then again a lot of the people would say, "Well, how was he? How was he as a dad? And did you go to the baseball game together, and would you go out and have a good time? And do you...
0:12:01 IWDM: Well we did.
0:12:02 Wali: Right.
0:12:02 IWDM: We did. Like I mentioned candy...
0:12:05 Wali: Yes.
0:12:05 IWDM: But he did more than that.
0:12:06 Wali: Right, right.
0:12:07 IWDM: He would set up when he had some free time and he would make sure he had some free time.
0:12:11 Wali: Yeah.
0:12:12 IWDM: He knew when he was too absent... Too much absent.
0:12:17 Wali: Yeah.
0:12:18 IWDM: And he would take time to laugh and talk with us, ask us questions about our personal interests, what you're doing and what you wanna do with your life. And then he would do that, and he was a father, he was a good father, and he would say, "Boys, you all wanna go ride with me," and back then it was something to ride in a car.
[chuckle]
0:12:37 IWDM: Because as you are poor.
0:12:39 Wali: Yes.
0:12:39 IWDM: It was something to ride in a car, now it's nothing. But then, it was a big, big thing if he took us for a ride, and he would take I remember, he took us to Robbins Illinois once. And he bought some watermelons from a watermelon stand... He bought a watermelon, brought it back home and we ate watermelon. It was a big time.
0:12:57 Wali: Right, right.
0:12:58 IWDM: Occasionally he would take us and get ice cream, bring ice cream back. Our mother also made homemade ice cream.
0:13:03 Wali: Yes.
0:13:03 IWDM: But you know a child is a child.
0:13:05 Wali: Right.
0:13:06 IWDM: Like a McDonald is different from that.
0:13:09 Wali: Right.
0:13:09 IWDM: Whatever you cook at home.
0:13:11 Wali: That's right? A home cooking is nothing like it.
0:13:13 IWDM: Yeah. No, no, no. McDonald's, McDonald's got first place now.
0:13:16 Wali: Oh right, right. And that's unfortunate.
[laughter]
0:13:19 IWDM: And back then, that ice cream cone had first place.
0:13:23 Wali: Yes, sir.
0:13:24 IWDM: We just going out to get it was exciting 'cause you didn't get out. Most of the boys in our neighborhood, they hardly ever gotten a ride in the car. Poor.
0:13:34 Wali: When you were growing up as teenager, when you got to be 14-15 years old, and then you're seeing your father and working and seeing him build the Nation of Islam, did you feel... What kind of changes did you go through seeing when the FOI and the Nation of Islam began to grow, how did you see that from when you saw when he was on the run all the time, and then now he's back and establishing the temples across the country?
0:14:00 IWDM: As a boy until I, perhaps I was about 17-18, the picture of the Nation of Islam to me was the picture of a spiritual family, people were spiritual family, believing in G-d and believing that their life was their world, and the life outside of their life was a foreign world that was threatening their life and their world. So this is how I came up, the Nation of Islam gave us a sense of belonging to a world that was threatened by the life of America, by this world's life. And I think most religious people like that, they just don't have... They didn't have the extreme sense of separation from the world that we had...
0:14:50 Wali: 'Cause it was like an insulation type of a situation.
0:14:53 IWDM: Yes, it was, it was. That was my idea of a picture of our Nation of Islam and the Honorable Elijah Muhammad until Malcom came along. When Malcolm came along and my father said, "I got me a new man. I got me a new minister," saying he's gonna do things that you're all going to see. And we did see, and soon we were seeing that. We were seeing Malcolm's influence and how he was getting the attention of youngsters. He got the attention of the young, and with that, we saw increased material growth too. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad had already gone into business, when he came out of prison. He said, " We have to focus on business." And he himself led that development, opened the first restaurant on 31st and Wentworth, first bakery on 31st and Wentworth, first grocery store, 31st and Wentworth and from there, it went to other places.
0:15:48 Wali: Yeah.
0:15:48 IWDM: He did it himself. He actually was the butcher, he was everything. He was the boss, he was the manager, he was everything. But he finally got helpers and Malcom came in and he gave the community the spirit to really go out in the streets and meet the brothers and sisters in the streets and invite them to the temple. And he had a few words that he gave and it was magic. He said... He asked me once before he said, "Wallace, I don't understand the lessons 'cause Malcolm came right to the Ministry from prison." You know that?
0:16:19 Wali: Yes, yes.
0:16:20 IWDM: He said, Wallace... But he had read a lot, he knew about the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, he was a reader. A person who was reading all the time, reading something all the time. He said to me, he said, "Wallace I don't understand a lot of the teachings from the lesson." I said, " I know what you're talking about." He said, "I don't feel too comfortable with it when I'm talking." I said, "Well you should work with what you feel comfortable with." He said, "What I feel comfortable with saying that we're living in modern Egypt." He said, "And the president of the United States is the modern Pharaoh." He said, "The Honorable Elijah Muhammad is the modern Moses," He said, "That's what I feel comfortable with."
[laughter]
0:17:03 Wali: Yeah, good analogy is...
0:17:04 IWDM: And he got our attention and he got African-American black people's attention on the street.
0:17:09 Wali: Yes, yes.
0:17:10 IWDM: And we just had more material growth and everything else, then I came to see the Nation of Islam in a different way. To me now, it's a movement to have a life of your own, not just spiritual life, but also a material life of your own.
0:17:26 Wali: Yes. Now he, Malcolm again, he had that spirit and that fervor and again he had the youth too...
0:17:32 IWDM: He had the youth.
0:17:33 Wali: And I think he was at the time, was he maybe the youngest...
0:17:37 IWDM: I believe he was.
0:17:38 Wali: Minister at the time, right?
0:17:38 IWDM: Yes.
0:17:39 Wali: Yes.
0:17:39 IWDM: I don't think there was a minister when he joined, there wasn't a minister as young as he is.
0:17:44 Wali: So he came in there as a fireball then, he was really rolling.
[laughter]
0:17:47 IWDM: Yeah, and he, if he looked at you, he looked at you, he said, "What are you young brothers doing?" He said to me, "What are you doing to help Honorable Elijah Muhammad build the nation?"
0:17:58 Wali: Right, right.
[laughter]
0:17:58 Wali: He to me, and I know, I'll ask you, his spirit and his dedication, how would you measure that?
0:18:10 IWDM: It's almost there's no comparison, we have no one to point to, to say, "This person, Malcolm was like this person." Malcom was very unique. He was the first one to have the courage and the energy to go out every day and long hours of the day and work to introduce the Honorable Elijah Muhammad and his plan for the black people in America. He was the only one, there's no one to point to, to say that he was like so and so.
0:18:41 Wali: Right, right, so he was the forerunner, he...
0:18:44 IWDM: Yeah, but he influenced the growth of many like himself. And Minister Farrakhan was one of them.
0:18:50 Wali: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. Your personal relationship with Minister Malcolm, you and he were very close. And how did you...
0:19:02 IWDM: Yes, and Farrakhan.
0:19:02 Wali: And Farrakhan, the three of you all were very close.
0:19:05 IWDM: Yes, yeah.
0:19:06 Wali: All about the same age. How was that your coming together and being ministers, student ministers, and how did they come about in terms of you working with Minister Malcolm and Minister Farrakhan?
0:19:19 IWDM: Malcolm once came to me and he said, "Wallace," he said, "I got a question. I'm preparing my talk, my address today." And he said, "I got something I wanna ask you." And I looked at him because you could tell, he's very sensitive person too. He took an interest in your personal life. So he knew right away that I wasn't too comfortable with him asking me questions. He said, "I talked to your father already."
[laughter]
0:19:48 IWDM: He said, "Your father told me that I want you and my son to get together." So I said, "Okay." And he asked me a question and I gave him my answer and he felt happy with it, and he was very happy with it in fact, he was ready to go.
0:20:03 Wali: Yes, yeah.
0:20:04 IWDM: As soon as he got something, he told me. He said he'd be in the barbershop getting a hair cut. He said, he would hear the fellows talking, he said and he would pick up something from their conversation, he said and he'd be so excited he had to tell the man to hold up on the hair... And said hold up...
0:20:17 Wali: You gotta write it down [chuckle]
0:20:18 IWDM: Give me a piece of paper... [chuckle] And he'd go and prepare some notes for his address...
0:20:23 Wali: Yes, yes.
0:20:24 IWDM: So he wouldn't forget what he heard that he wanted to include in his notes.
0:20:28 Wali: Yes.
0:20:28 IWDM: Yes. So our friendship developed because of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad, I would have had a friendship with him, but I wouldn't have had that closeness and that confidence between us that we enjoyed.
0:20:45 Wali: Yes.
0:20:48 IWDM: I wouldn't have had that, had it not be The Honorable Elijah Muhammad told Malcom that I was special as a religious person or a spiritual person. Yes.
0:20:57 Wali: So how was he accepted with the rest of the family, with The Honorable Elijah Muhammad and the family of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad.
0:21:03 IWDM: Just like a member of the family.
0:21:05 Wali: Right.
0:21:05 IWDM: My mother used to call him son, and she called him son affectionately with the same look in her eyes that she would have when she called me, son. And she called me son only when she was feeling real good about me. [laughter]
[laughter]
0:21:17 Wali: Yes, okay. Right, right, So that was... There was... Again, he was part of the family then, in a way.
0:21:27 IWDM: Yes. And a few of my brothers, they loved him so much that they actually would do as much for him as they would for me or any other brother... Of their brothers. Elijah Muhammad was one of them. Elijah Muhammad II, Junior. Yeah, he was on of them. He loved Malcom so much. And I don't know if the audience they're aware of this... I know you are. But The Honorable Elijah Muhammad and Malcom loved each other just like a father and son do. And my father, I've heard my father call him, "My son." Yeah. And you know, when you're real close, when you love each other a lot, if something happens to hurt that, it can go to the other extreme.
0:22:11 Wali: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And so from there, growing and moving toward... Into the ministry did that influence you to actually get into... Your father actually saying, "We're gonna put you into the ministry, we wanna put you into it and direct... " You know, how did that come about you getting ultimately into Philadelphia, Pennsylvania?
0:22:32 IWDM: Yes. Well, when I was... As far as I can remember, when I was playing with my friends, a little child playing, he understands his friends, he understands his toys, he understands the girl he loves. But he doesn't understand this big business of a nation... Building a nation [chuckle]
0:22:49 Wali: Right.
0:22:50 IWDM: But they would constantly remind me that... They would fear me playing like... My sister, Rayya. Your mother. Lottie Rayya. She once saw me playing and she said, "Wallace you're not like the other boys." She said, "Remember the Savior named you after him." She did.
0:23:07 Wali: Yeah.
0:23:07 IWDM: So that's just an example I'm giving you of what I heard, not only from my sister or family members, I heard that also from senior members in the Nation Of Islam that were close to my father, friends of my father, women and men, they would all... Brother John... Big John...
0:23:25 Wali: Hassan?
0:23:25 IWDM: Remember Big John Hassan?
0:23:26 Wali: Yes, yes.
0:23:26 IWDM: Yeah. Well, he looked like he was... He would think sometimes this boy is maybe forgetting, he would say...
0:23:33 Wali: Keep you on track. [laughter]
0:23:33 IWDM: Look at me, he would get in my eyes... He'd get in my eyes an look me dead in th eye, "WD", That's all he would say...
0:23:40 Wali: That's all he would say. [chuckle]
0:23:41 IWDM: That's all he would say. 'Cause I get my WD from WD Fard, the one that brought the message to my father.
0:23:48 Wali: Yes, yes.
0:23:49 IWDM: Yeah. So I had plenty help to keep that on my mind. And I knew it was very serious with them but I couldn't really... To tell you the truth, I was thinking about what all children think about.
0:24:02 Wali: Sure.
0:24:02 IWDM: And I was thinking... As I got a little older, I was thinking that, "Daddy's gonna put me out of house sooner or later."
[chuckle]
0:24:09 Wali: Right.
0:24:09 IWDM: And I need me a good job. So I was thinking about getting a good paying job. [chuckle] I thought about driving the semi-trucks. I heard that that could bring in good money and other things, other jobs. So that's where my mind was. But one day on a Wednesday night when they would sometimes invite brothers to get up and try for the ministry. This night, Minister James, do you remember Minister James?
0:24:37 Wali: Yes, Shabazz, right.
0:24:38 IWDM: Sheikh Shabazz.
0:24:39 Wali: Sheikh Shabazz.
0:24:39 IWDM: Minister James, he said, "You young brothers." He said, "Well, do any one of you all would like to come up and express yourself tonight?" And LeRoy my friend, you know how close LeRoy and I were...
0:24:52 Wali: Oh yes. Yes.
0:24:53 IWDM: Everyday with LeRoy.
[chuckle]
0:24:54 Wali: Right.
0:24:55 IWDM: Okay. He said, "I'm going up." I was a little surprised. I said, "Okay." He went up and he spoke well, I was surprised by the way he handled it, he handled it very well. He came, he sat down and he looked at me, he said, "Chicken." [chuckle] And then Minister James said, "Are there any other young brothers wanna come up?" I got up.
[vocalization]
[laughter]
0:25:20 IWDM: I was so stage frightened, I was frozen. And I got up there and I had been asked by my teacher to get up before the class and speak and it was very difficult. But this time when I was asked, I looked at the audience and something changed in me. All the fear went away, and all I could see was their faces. Sisters. Old sisters, young sisters. Mostly old sisters. Smiling, looking at me. Smiling, like my mother would smile when she was pleased with me. Smiling. Saying with their faces, "We are so happy that you came up to speak." I forgot about fear. And I gave my first speech, it changed a whole lot in the Nation Of Islam. I said, we give more attention to the devil then we give to Allah. I said, "That's not right."
0:26:13 Wali: Right.
0:26:14 IWDM: I said. And we say in the name of Allah and in the name of his messenger, but we are told that Christians are wrong, to put Jesus with G-d, had changed a lot. One day, one night and a few minutes speaking, I'll changed a lot.
0:26:31 Wali: You put some on in mind.
0:26:32 IWDM: It went all over the nation of Islam and most of the ministers stop saying in the name of Allah and in the name, in the name of Allah who came in the person first of all and in the name, you know how to use this.
0:26:42 Wali: Yes, yes.
0:26:42 IWDM: Most of them changed it. That young boy that they had so much respect for, because my father had told them that I would be special.
0:26:51 Wali: Yes. And then to hear those words you know...
0:26:55 IWDM: One wouldn't change. Raymond Sharrieff.
[laughter]
0:27:00 IWDM: He would make a point, every time he got up to speak, he would say, "In the name of Allah" you know I am not joking, who came in the person of Master W. D Farad, and in the name of his servant and his messenger, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad.
[laughter]
0:27:14 Wali: You emphasise, make sure and you don't deviate not one word.
[laughter]
0:27:26 Wali: But you put some on their mind that you opened up some... You unlocked some locks in their brain.
0:27:30 IWDM: And never said a thing about it.
0:27:32 Wali: Yes, yes.
0:27:32 IWDM: And my father never said a thing about it, he never told me, "You started something new here." Never said a thing about it.
0:27:39 Wali: Never said...
0:27:39 IWDM: But he accepted it, yes. I said we should say, and we thank Allah for the Honorable Elijah Mohammad, and that's the way they did and it became the form for all of the nation of Islam.
0:27:49 Wali: It was such a glorious time and is still a glorious time to see the evolution as to where the Nation of Islam came from doing those early 30s and 40s, and so we are today, and there's so much more to talk about 'cause we can go on to do a whole interview on just... On your relationship with Brother Malcom, because we... We had, we did a television interview years ago about it and then ever since we talked, we did that interview, everybody's been saying, "When you're gotta do part two, when you're gonna do a part three, you're going to tell us little bit more about what the Imam and Malcolm's relationship. Tell us a little bit more about them." So I said, "Well, if I ever get them on a radio, or a microphone again, we're gonna talk about that." [laughter]
0:28:29 IWDM: Alright, alright.
0:28:30 Wali: You talk about some of the things about Malcolm.
0:28:32 IWDM: Yeah we need to because there's...
0:28:33 Wali: It's lot of misconceptions out there, you know.
0:28:35 IWDM: We gave the bright side.
0:28:37 Wali: Yes.
0:28:37 IWDM: There's the dark side.
0:28:38 Wali: Exactly, exactly.
0:28:39 IWDM: I learned on being interviewed by television host, by... Like I'm being interviewed right now by you. I learned that what I was believing somebody else has said about the... Malcolm and my relationship was false. And I had told her about it that Malcom would never do that. And the interviewer told me, "Yes, he did, he told me that." So I stopped seeing Malcolm as a good guy, but he got desperate to save his own life and just stay in the focus, he became a backstabber, he stabbed me in the back.
0:29:21 Wali: Now, let's get to that point, where that changed, where that pivot happened, you know, when again, where he was a part of the family, what happened, and you know I'm talking about from the personal point of view and your... What do you think made him... What happened to him to make him just to do that?
0:29:37 IWDM: Disappointment.
0:29:39 Wali: Yes.
0:29:39 IWDM: Here's the man that he believed in with all of his heart and soul and mind, and now, he's forced to see that the man that he thought was his father, because you know Malcolm didn't have a father.
0:29:55 Wali: Yes.
0:29:55 IWDM: And also his saviour, who saved them from the bad life that he had on the streets and from prison, really. And now this man, no more can be trusted by him, he had to accept that the Nation of Islam was trying to discredit him and kill his image in the public's eye, and also in the eyes of the members of the Nation of Islam. So when he accepted that I think he got sick, really. And I'm saying this... I mean when I say sick, I don't mean mentally sick, I mean the healthy man was not there anymore. The man that could handle problems and handle situations, he was not there anymore, he was a desperate man, only trying to stay alive physically and also stay alive in the eyes of the people. Okay, so he became a very desperate man, and that degree of desperation in him, make me say that he was a sick man, a sick man. He couldn't make rational decisions anymore like he used to, like he had been doing before. I told him, I said, "You are set telling me... " 'cause he told me on the phone, I said, "You're telling me that they're out to kill you?" I said, "What are you doing about it?" He said, "Well, what can I do about it?" He said "You know, I led the flute, I know what they're capable of, I'm the one that gave them their thinking, that wasn't the Malcolm that I knew before. The Malcolm that I knew before, he wouldn't take credit like that.
0:31:32 Wali: Right, right.
0:31:33 IWDM: I know what they think, I know their minds, I know what they're capable of doing, I said, "But is that... Is it legal for them to threaten your life like that? I said why don't you to report them to the police?" He said, "Wallace, it is the police," he said, "It's the police too, the New York police too." I said, "Well, I still would report them to the police, I say 'cause the police is obligated to protect citizens." I said, "If you go to them, maybe they'll see you differently." So we couldn't talk, we couldn't talk. He had changed.
0:32:02 Wali: Yeah, he didn't feel comfortable and he didn't feel that the...
0:32:07 IWDM: He didn't wanna trust the white man.
0:32:08 Wali: He didn't wanna trust the white... Right.
0:32:12 IWDM: He didn't wanna trust the white man. And he was trying to handle it by himself. And he thought the white man was behind it.
0:32:15 Wali: Yes. Did you feel that his faith really had been challenged in terms of his belief and his...
0:32:24 IWDM: Definitely so. I go back to person that you enjoyed a beautiful and perfect relationship, love relationship with like a wife you know. You and your wife, you have a beautiful relationship. Everything is perfect, and then all of a sudden, one or the other find out that one is disloyal, not loyal. At the extreme that that relationship can go to, is unimaginable. Maybe somebody will be killed.
[chuckle]
0:32:55 Wali: That's true. Yes. Yes. And so that again, 'caused now, what was... Where was the last you remember? When was the last time you actually talked with him or saw him, prior to him being assassinated?
0:33:08 IWDM: The last time I saw Malcolm was when he asked me, would I talk to the investigator who was investigating... Prosecutor who was investigating and trying to build up the case, trying to make a case against my father for his not respecting his obligation as a father to children born by wives. He said wives.
0:33:38 Wali: Right.
0:33:39 IWDM: Those who didn't like him, they say, secretary, girlfriend, young girls. But I say wives too if I know my father if he had a relationship with a woman, that he did his best to take care of her and the children. I know that. Okay. So I was asked to come and talk to this prosecutor who was trying to build the case. And I did it, because I wanted to see what was happening, and I also did thinking, "Well, if it's possible I can help, I'll be there. I'll be willing to help." But I didn't like, I had told Malcolm before. I said, "Malcolm, if you want the people to distance themselves more from you," I said, "Just start getting into the personal affairs of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad." I said, "That's not the way to do it. Now, you wanna win the people," I said, "You can't win the people." And I said, "You can't get the followers of The Honorable Elijah Muhammad."
0:34:38 Wali: No, that's right.
0:34:39 IWDM: It's been tried many times before.
0:34:40 Wali: Sure, sure. Yes.
0:34:41 IWDM: "And no matter how great you are and how popular you are with them, you are popular because they love him and they love you for helping him more than anybody else had helped him."
0:34:51 Wali: Exactly.
0:34:52 IWDM: "But once they see you not liking... Not loving him, their love for you will be gone." So I'm trying to convince Malcolm, okay? But he insists upon doing this, and I, being the person I am, I want to know what's going on. So I went there, and the prosecutor looked at me and I think he saw in my face that I didn't belong. He said, "Are you with us?" And I said, "I don't know."
[chuckle]
0:35:17 Wali: Right, right.
0:35:17 IWDM: He said, "Well, you know what we're doing?" I said, "Tell me." He said, "Well, your father have been involved with these young ladies and we're trying to bring him to court. They want us to bring him to court. Say, "Are you with us?" I said, "No." Malcolm looked awfully let down. He looked like he had been, like he heard somebody died that was close to... Very close to him. And he didn't say a thing to me. He didn't say a thing to me. That was the last time I saw Malcolm alive.
0:35:50 Wali: And where was that?
0:35:51 IWDM: That was in Chicago.
0:35:52 Wali: Oh, Chicago?
0:35:52 IWDM: Yes.
0:35:53 Wali: Yes.
0:35:53 IWDM: They came to Chicago.
0:35:54 Wali: Yes. The way it was portrayed, even in the history books and even on the movies and things like that, they never go into the reasons, the real reasons why there was this... The disappointment and all of that, but there's so much misinformation regarding The Honorable Elijah Muhammad and like you said, the image that they gave was that he was not taking care of his responsibility.
0:36:21 IWDM: Right, right.
0:36:22 Wali: And that was the biggest thing that they used in the media.
0:36:24 IWDM: And like it's a big thing that this old man got five or six young girls, 17, 18, 19, 20-years-old, but that old... That man read in the Bible, and he was also following the Bible. He didn't know the Quran. He followed the Bible. His teacher told him to use the Bible, said they died in the Bible. You had to wake 'em up in the Bible. Or they went to sleep in the Bible, you had to wake 'em up in the Bible. So The Honorable Elijah Muhammad was the son of a preacher, and my grandfather, you know our grandfather, Wali Muhammad. William Muhammed before his name was changed to Wali, Islamic name. And here's a man who reads in the Bible, he's told that he's a messenger of G-d now. He's a messenger of G-d, and he reads in the Bible, where David and Solomon, all of 'em had all these young ladies and had hundreds of them. You tell me I can't have seven?
0:37:12 Wali: Right. Yes. So it all fell into place. [laughter] Just logical, right?
0:37:19 IWDM: Well, well, well, not...
0:37:21 Wali: Logical deduction, anyway.
0:37:22 IWDM: Well, it depend upon your taste.
0:37:23 Wali: Yes, exactly.
0:37:24 IWDM: The Honorable Elijah Muhammad had that taste of Solomon, you know?
[laughter]
0:37:28 Wali: Absolutely. Absolutely. So that again, and again it's not... That was not a true statement of... Again, I'm going back to that again, because it just... It bothers me personally to see how they kept in the media saying that, "Oh, he didn't take care of his... " Everybody know how many people had he helped that didn't... That he didn't even know personally.
0:37:51 IWDM: And what about questioning the young ladies?
0:37:54 Wali: Exactly.
0:37:54 IWDM: Why did they come to this old man?
0:37:55 Wali: Right, right. Why did they come to him? Right. Exactly.
0:38:00 IWDM: Why did they sleep with this old man?
0:38:01 Wali: Exactly.
0:38:03 IWDM: They had a reason.
0:38:04 Wali: Yes, absolutely. So there's so many things now. The other thing too, Brother Imam, is that now that we look forward from during that time, that's almost 35, almost 40 years ago, and to look at the legacy now of Malcolm and how do you perceive him? How do you think he's being perceived now 40 years later?
0:38:31 IWDM: Well, most people are not thinking of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad having more than... Adding wives, why had he taken on wives from his secretaries. Most of the people are not thinking about that. They remember the Honorable Elijah Muhammad that inspired them like James Brown was inspiring them, and I'm telling you what James Brown told me himself to write the song "Black and Proud." They're seeing him... One of our most popular leaders in the church told me, he said, "We're just talking about the Honorable Elijah Muhammad," like we are now, and not this seriously though, and he said to me, he said, "Wallace, we talk like this to... " He said, "Wallace," he said to me, "Wallace," he said, "Wallace, do you know what we call your father in our private meetings?" I said, "No, I don't." He said, "We call him Father." Ain't that something?
0:39:31 Wali: Ain't that something.
0:39:31 IWDM: And I'm talking about a man that has maybe all the African Americans in this country, looking to him and respecting him. He's that well-known, I don't wanna give his name. That's what he told me. And I meet so many that have told me that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad... They never belonged to the native Islam, they were never Muslim. But the Honorable Elijah Muhammad inspired them to go back to school and make something of themselves. Many more tell me that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad was their reason for going into business, and they have become this successful, because of the Honorable Elijah Muhammed turned them onto a life of dignity as a business person.
0:40:16 Wali: Yes, yes. And do you feel that because of the negative, or the lack of, or the media not giving him the credit in terms of notoriety that he should be getting today, you think that's in part maybe because of the media again and the misconceptions about the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, they're not putting him... You don't hear that every day, you don't hear the things that... The positive things... And you don't hear too much about him, not even in the history books, you know.
0:40:46 IWDM: Well, let me say this, the media can't go ahead of reality. The media has to respect reality. If it's a bad thing and their ethics oppose that or say they should expose that thing, then they do it. But black leaders who are loved by black people, and we have more people who will tell you that they appreciate the Honorable Elijah Muhammad from the church life, from the Christians, than that will tell you, "He was a bad guy." Yeah, most of them will not say, "He's a bad guy." They remember him for the good he did, for being a father figure, that's what he was. He was a father figure, the figure telling us not to be lazy, clean up ourselves, if you work for somebody, give them a honest day's work, don't waste your time in foolishness. He was a father figure, so they remember him as such.
0:41:55 IWDM: And the media know, the media know that he's that in the hearts of the black people. But they also know that he did things that have him also in disfavor, so I think I can accept that the media does not give Honorable Elijah Muhammad a lot of attention. But I appreciate the Chicago Magazine for saying that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad was one of the people... Also the Sun-Times, same thing, did the same thing, that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad said that he was one of the 100 persons, I think they said or so, that influenced the course of Chicago's history. And you know, Reader's Digest, long before the Honorable Elijah Mohammad passed, said that the Honorable Elijah... Was on the cover. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad is the most powerful black man in America.
0:42:47 Wali: Yes, that's right. That was back in the '60s. Yes, sir. All right, good. The relationship... Then we move on, 'cause again we could be here all day... With Mr. Louis Farrakhan. How did you two meet?
[laughter]
0:43:05 IWDM: You must have heard it. I was a young student minister, and I was also the manager of the restaurant, the Muslim restaurant, on 79th street. And whenever there was a Saviours' Day convention, the annual coming together of all the followers of Honorable Elijah Muhammad, at one place to hear him. Whenever there was the convention, Saviours' Day convention, the place is just... Became so crowded, we never could take care of everybody. There's too many coming to the restaurants. So I could see him as plain as I'm looking at you almost. And I see a guy with waves in his hair, process, processed. And the audience may not know what processing is. Processing back then was you would go to a barber...
0:44:03 Wali: Relax your hair and put the...
0:44:04 IWDM: Yeah, you go to a barber and the barber put lye on your hair...
0:44:05 Wali: The chemical, yeah.
0:44:07 IWDM: And they grease you all around the ears and the face, so you don't get burnt by the lye, and then he put that lye solution in your hair and it comes out straight like a white man's hair. [chuckle] So here's Farrakhan, he looking good. And he came in and he spoke to me, I didn't speak to him, he spoke to me first, he recognized me. He said, "You're Minister Wallace, the son of Honorable Elijah Muhammad?" I said, "Yes, yeah." And I guess the way I responded to him, 'cause I'm a street boy too, not a bad boy, but a street boy, so I think he... Right away, he knew that he could talk to me freely. And he said, "Yeah, so I came," he said, "I think of becoming a member of the Nation of Islam." He hadn't joined yet. He came to his first Saviours' Day, was in Chicago, and there he made his decision to be a follower of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. But I think it was strongly in him. And he introduced his wife to me. And she was so pretty, it was hard for me to keep my attention off of him... Off of her, and on him. One of the prettiest young women I ever saw, you know, for me, you know. And he recognized that too. And he started some other conversation, it really got down after that. [laughter] He started telling me about his life. He say, "I need some help." He said, "Would Elijah Muhammad gonna help me?" I say, "Yes, he is."
[laughter]
0:45:28 Wali: So he came to the right person to help him.
0:45:32 IWDM: He sure did. [laughter] He was called the charmer. And he's a calypso singer and that's how he made his money, playing guitar and dancing on the stage, and singing.
0:45:43 Wali: His influence was... Harry Belafonte was one of his... He was one of his contemporaries.
0:45:48 IWDM: That's right. And he was good. He was good and very brilliant. As you know, he wrote a play after he came... Remember the Nation of Islam? Orgena.
0:45:57 Wali: Orgena, right.
0:45:57 IWDM: Negro spelled backwards. And that play was played at the biggest show in our neighborhood on the south side of Chicago, the Tivoli Theatre.
0:46:07 Wali: Tivoli, right, right.
0:46:08 IWDM: Yeah. That's where it was put on.
0:46:10 Wali: Back in about 1960, '61?
0:46:12 IWDM: Yeah, around '60. Certainly around... Yeah. '60 or '61, yeah.
0:46:16 Wali: Yes. I remember that. So from there, you got to meet him and then... So you met him in Chicago then? Wasn't New York where you met him or Boston?
0:46:25 IWDM: No, I met him in Chicago at the restaurant.
0:46:26 Wali: At the restaurant, yes.
0:46:27 IWDM: At the Muslim restaurant.
0:46:28 Wali: Yeah. And so from there, then apparently he went back and got into the ministry or...
0:46:34 IWDM: He did. He went back and he... Right away, he got into the ministry. He was already used to audiences 'cause he was an entertainer. So it was easy for him to get onto the ministry. And one day, we were talking in his home, in fact, and he would play the violin for us. He's an entertainer. And we ate with him and we invited him to our home too. In Philadelphia, he'll visit me in my home. This was Boston where I visited him. And he was telling me about his personal life. So I said, "What did you study? What was your concentration in college?" He said, "Theatrics."
0:47:21 Wali: Okay. [laughter] That says a lot. That says a lot.
0:47:26 IWDM: So the ministry had... The teachers had a lot to work with already in Minister Farrakhan. They did not have to help him present himself to an audience. They only had to help him know what to deliver, what language to speak. [laughter]
0:47:41 Wali: The substance, right. Exactly, exactly. Did he consult with you much in terms of helping him to understand the religion and understand the Bible and the...
0:47:52 IWDM: Yes, he did. Yes, he did. He did but not near as much and as I would say concentrated attention, concentrated interest that Malcolm had known. It was different. It was different. But occasionally, he would come to me and he would ask me my opinion. What did I think of him delivering a talk this way and including these materials and whatever? Yes, he did.
0:48:19 Wali: So then... Again, you said Malcolm, he would... Again, he had a big appetite for knowledge and wanted to absorb, absorb, absorb, absorb. And they both had that, but in their own way.
0:48:32 IWDM: And he had a lot of faith that if he could present all of Elijah Muhammad's plan to the black man, black people would accept all of Elijah Muhammad's leadership. Yeah. He was convinced of that.
0:48:44 Wali: To see all of that beauty and coming together with the three of you and coming up to now, 1975, when you became the heir apparent of the Nation of Islam, how did you feel at the time when a few years later when Minister Farrakhan broke away and left the Nation of Islam as it was called at the time under your leadership?
0:49:06 IWDM: Yes, it was a little over two years, maybe close to three years. And I had just finished speaking. It was... I believe it was on a Sunday. And he came to me and I knew that something was very heavy on his heart. Just a look at his face told me that. And his friend and kind of a mentor, Brother Larry... You know Brother Larry?
0:49:31 Wali: Yes, yes.
0:49:32 IWDM: He was with him. He brought him. He was there standing with him. And he said, "Minister Farrakhan," he says, "He wants to say something to you." Brother... Minister... We can still call him minister. I said, "Okay." I say, "Yes, what is it?" Minister Farrakhan looked at me and he said, "You have discredited your father in the eyes of the people, his followers." He said, "And it has caused us to lose a lot of our young ones." He said, "A member of my family... " He's talking about one of his sons. I know who he's talking about. And he say, "And I have decided to go and build the Nation of Islam up again." That was it. That's what he told me. And I told him... I had fewer words to say to him. I said, "If that's what you wanna do," I say, "don't expect any trouble from me." That was it. And he left.
0:50:41 Wali: At that time, he didn't agree with the changes and the direction that you and the World Community of Islam at that time. He didn't wanna go that direction at all.
0:50:52 IWDM: No, no, and he never did. He never did agree with it. He stayed around and stayed with it because I tried to encourage him. I said, "We're in Chicago," I said... And I was told somebody... This is the rumor, that I brought him from the East Coast, New York area, to separate him from his support out there. That's not true. You know me, I don't do things like that. Okay. It was not my decision to bring him to Chicago, it was the leaders' decision, and those leaders were put in place by the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. I didn't come in and take those people out of leadership. I have kept the people in position that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad put in position. It was their decision that if we didn't bring him to Chicago, his life would be in danger. Telling me that, I have to agree with them to bring him to Chicago, okay? Now that he's in Chicago, I'm feeling bad, I'm feeling that... What can I do for him? What can I do for him?
0:51:57 IWDM: So, I knew he can speak. I know the man can attract the people, I know he can hold people. I said, the West Side, I always wondered why we didn't give more attention to the West Side, when the West Side, we had members that were following the Honorable Elijah Muhammad from the West Side of Chicago, who was given financial support, and was loyal to the Honorable Elijah Muhammad. And in my opinion, they were of equal value to us, not the South Side so important, no. West Side is as important. That's the way I saw it, even though we did not have activity on the West Side. So I said, "Here's a chance now for us to develop the West Side." I said, "If you go to the West Side," I said, "I will support you." I said, "You could build another big temple on the West Side, or mosque. The Honorable Elijah Muhammad changed it from temple to mosque before he... From mosque to temple before he died. As a young student of school, it's the Muslim school, you knew it as mosque, mosque number two. He had already changed it.
0:53:01 IWDM: But then in the '70s, around early '70s, he changed it back to the temple. I think it was temple at that time, so I said, "You can build a big temple on the West Side." And he looked like... I know he was surprised that I was suggesting that, and his eyes told me that he would have to really work on himself to get [chuckle] himself in the groove for that. But he did attempt to do that and they did start something. There was something on the West Side, as you know, but it was a very small group of people on the West Side, and they were not having a dynamic leader over there. But anyway, that didn't work. Just to close this out on Minister Farrakhan. I wanted Minister Farrakhan to follow his own conscience, but at the same time, I felt Minister Farrakhan was influenced... His decision was influenced by his desperation too. I mentioned that Malcolm situation was desperate.
0:54:09 Wali: Same scenario.
0:54:12 IWDM: Yeah. So, now we have another man whose situation is desperate. He's used to attracting thousands and thousands of people, and he's used to making strong appeals for funds and monies and donation, and he's used to having a hefty account, bank account.
0:54:29 Wali: Access to a lot of resources, right.
0:54:34 IWDM: Right. A luxury car, a luxury car. A life of luxury. So he's used to that, and he's not in that alone, now he has his wife and he has his children who are used to that. So I have to respect that, a man is used to living on a certain level, now here comes this Mao Tse-tung, without an army, and he's saying that we got to do away with these things. [laughter] We got to get down with the common people and work with them and do away with these luxuries. So I can understand that being a motive too for him leaving.
0:55:06 Wali: He just couldn't relate to that at all in terms of not having to...
0:55:10 IWDM: No, and many others too, they couldn't.
0:55:12 Wali: Yes, there were quite a few. Yes, that just couldn't deal with that.
0:55:14 IWDM: And it was the leaders. The people, they stayed with us.
0:55:17 Wali: Yes, they did.
0:55:17 IWDM: We lost very few.
0:55:19 Wali: Right, right. And they wanna have that certain lifestyle, they wanted to keep that certain lifestyle.
0:55:25 IWDM: And I forgive them, I want it too, but in time.
0:55:27 Wali: Inshallah. [laughter] Going back to now, the building of the economic thrust of the Nation of Islam and now the Muslim-American Society, your economic thrust now, there's a thrust now that's very, very, very active. Tell us a little bit about some of the things that Delaney Muhammad is doing.
0:55:49 IWDM: When I said in time, that's where I'm coming from. We have gone back to the Black Nationalists' and some others' interest in bringing poor people together to put their small monies together and use the monies to make big purchases. If you can collect money to buy the minister a fine home, and about four or five nice cars, a fleet of cars, we can collect money as Honorable Elijah Muhammad said, we can collect money to establish our people in business. So we went back to that idea, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad called it, "Pooling our small resources." Yes, and we are not going to that extreme that they went to because I don't think it's practical and wouldn't be desirable at all, now that we have accepted that America includes us. We are not living under two laws, one down South and another one up here and all that. Now that we have this situation, it just wouldn't be rational for us to have it to the extreme that the Honorable Elijah Muhammad had it, where people put their personal properties up. They'd have collaterals to make loans in the bank and borrow from the banks, etcetera. That's what was done in the time of Honorable Elijah Muhammad. And it made the Nation of Islam very strong financially, as you know.
0:57:24 IWDM: We don't do that. We don't ask any more of the individual than we could ask... Than I would ask of the individual if we were in the court and the judge was listening to what I'm saying. Okay? Yeah. But we ask them to respect this free enterprise system, and to have faith that if they have a business nature, a business spirit, a business mind, that they can be successful in business. And if you have established a record of being a decent business person, and you strongly support our religion and our plans for our religion in America, then we want to include you in this special group of investors who invest in CPC, Collective Purchasing Conference, which is a purchasing entity, an entity to make volume purchases from factories, right from factories, and bring it to us directly, so there are no middle men.
0:58:20 IWDM: And we sell it to the public at the same price of the market. Like if we process meats, as you know, so we have ground beef, our ground beef, you shouldn't have to pay more for our ground beef than you pay for Jewel's or Dominick's ground beef or any other chain store, Fairplay. You should be able to get our ground beef and you shouldn't be shocked by our price. "Oh this is okay, I'm comfortable with this." So, this is our business, and it's an organization of investors with faith in our future as African-American Muslims in this country. So, we have not quite as much energy going for us, but we have almost as much energy as Honorable Elijah Muhammad had. He said the Nation of Islam, we are saying, "We are investing in our future where we would have better schools, better mosques. You know we have our own religious schools?
0:59:14 Wali: Yes.
0:59:15 IWDM: Better Mosques, better schools, better qualified teachers. Those who are qualified now that we're underpaying, we'll be able to pay them more, give them a decent salary they can be happy with. So we are working for our future, the future of our community life, not just for money. That's the more... That's when you really make money, when you have a motive bigger than paying the car note and paying the rent, when you have a motive bigger than that, many times bigger than that, that's when you can really make money.
0:59:45 Wali: Yes. Yes. And also with some of the products and services that now are being taken care of, overseas now, you're also dealing with spices also and even cosmetics, so you've really diversified in so many ways.
1:00:01 IWDM: Yes, we're interested, and we found a product that I used a few times, and I said, "Oh, I can't do without this. I have to... " So, I was desperate, and I met a brother from Kansas City, who had lived in Chicago, and you know him yourself. He was an officer Fruit of Islam, and he told me, he said, "We have the shea butter, I can get it." I said, "You can?" That's how I started. So I ended up inviting the investors to invest in shea butter, and we brought in a total of 132 metric tons of shea butter from Africa. Yeah.
1:00:42 Wali: Yeah. And that shea butter is phenomenal, it's a miracle. [chuckle]
1:00:47 IWDM: It is. It is.
1:00:47 Wali: Some people look at it as like, it's just changed their lives. It's done so many good things for 'em.
1:00:52 IWDM: You see this old man's skin?
[chuckle]
1:00:53 Wali: That's what I'm looking at... [chuckle]
1:00:55 IWDM: Look like about 18, 19-year-old arm to me.
1:00:58 Wali: That's right. That's right. That's right.
1:01:00 IWDM: I use it all the time. I was wrinkly before, I was looking bad, but that stuff actually improves leather, not only skin. Leather is skin, leather is dead skin. If you got a leather purse or something leather, something you love, something you got, you don't want... You put it on there, it brings back the newness and the... It makes it supple. It's soft. Yes. It would be getting hard, and makes it soft...
1:01:30 Wali: Makes it soft, right.
1:01:31 IWDM: Brings it right back like it was new...
1:01:32 Wali: Back to the natural...
1:01:32 IWDM: Maybe even make it better.
1:01:34 Wali: It's amazing.
1:01:35 IWDM: Maybe the appearance and texture would be even better, by applying shea butter. We don't have yet, and I might be selling... Giving this to somebody in the audience. That's okay, take it and run with it. We don't have yet a leather treatment, but we are working on it, as pretty soon, we'll have leather treatment substance, all mostly pure shea butter.
1:01:58 Wali: Beautiful, wonderful. So that's another... And that product now is being distributed all over the country, and even going into overseas too also, it's going back.
1:02:08 IWDM: Well, we had someone interested, believe it or not, in Africa, told us they'd like to buy our processed shea butter. And they got...
1:02:17 Wali: It came from Africa.
1:02:18 IWDM: They have the raw product, but they are interested in our processed shea butter.
1:02:24 Wali: Well, I know that it's really a fabulous product, and I'm sure... I'd say I use it every day, and everybody that I see, talk to, they say, "When will we get some more? We gotta get some more of that shea butter." It's really...
1:02:35 IWDM: And we... The Honorable Elijah Muhammad said, "Food, clothes and shelter." Okay. So really we're looking at real estate, we're looking at food, and we're looking at clothing. We have a source for men dress suits, and pretty soon, there's gonna be retail stores popping up around us, and it's gonna be called "Business Tie Wear". Business Tie Wear.
1:03:01 Wali: Business Tie Wear, alright.
1:03:03 IWDM: Business Tie Wear.
1:03:04 Wali: Yes... Looking forward to that. [chuckle] And also in...
1:03:10 IWDM: Affordable. Affordable.
1:03:10 Wali: Yes, affordable, exactly.
1:03:12 IWDM: Affordable, but high-quality.
1:03:13 Wali: Yes. Now also in the food industry, also, you're gonna be doing some more things in the food...
1:03:17 IWDM: Yes. We're gonna be... You know, I have a connection with white folks too. A lot of our people don't like that, but I do. I found out that a human being is a human being in any color.
1:03:28 Wali: Exactly. There we go. Thank you.
1:03:30 IWDM: Charity starts at home, but it should spread abroad. So, we have friends in Poland, and Poland, as you know, is one of the countries that suffer the most, and this has been just history. The Polish, they have not had a strong economy, they have not had things working in their favor, to have the more strong economy. So, we made a good connection, and we will soon have our own private label brand, Polish Sausage, made to our specifications, halal, from Poland.
1:04:08 Wali: Wow.
1:04:08 IWDM: From Poland. And we'll be making our special sausages too, egg-made.
1:04:14 Wali: That's gonna be wonderful. That's gonna be wonderful. So many wonderful things that you're doing, Brother Imam, and it's just that we have to... We wanna do all... Those of us who are in the media, to let the world know what you're doing, we want to just... And that's what our job is, is just to let everybody know what the Imam is doing, and it's an international, it's a global effort. It's not just here in Chicago and not in New York or Philadelphia. It's all over the world.
1:04:39 IWDM: I'm gonna tell you what I know and then there's a few words. I'm obeying my parents and everything good they told me to do.
1:04:46 Wali: Absolutely, absolutely.
1:04:47 IWDM: I'm obeying. Wallace is still obeying.
1:04:50 Wali: That's right. Remember what daddy and momma said. [laughter]
1:04:54 IWDM: And Muhammad. Momma, prayer for Muhammad. And the Honorable Elijah Muhammad's best wishes for the African American people.
1:05:00 Wali: I know they're proud, I know they're proud.
1:05:02 IWDM: Yeah, I am.
1:05:02 Wali: The Muslim Americans' annual convention is coming up on the Labor Day weekend. And it's gonna be phenomenal, and I understand that they're gonna... The main speaker will be yourself, of course, at the USC Pavilion on...
1:05:20 IWDM: On Sunday.
1:05:21 Wali: On Sunday, September 1st. Now, give us a little caption. Now don't tell us... Just give us a little bit so we're getting a little peak of what you're gonna be doing yourself. [chuckle]
1:05:28 IWDM: Firstly, you know, I'm gonna lead the Jum'ah prayers.
1:05:30 Wali: Yes, on a Friday.
1:05:31 IWDM: That's the sacred, the very sacred occasion for us, where speeches, a sermon or a speech is delivered, and then we lead the congregation in prayer. That will be Friday. That would be the opening day of the convention. Yes, so there'll be someone there maybe from the city, representing the Mayor's office, not the Mayor himself.
1:05:54 Wali: Now, where would this be?
1:05:58 IWDM: This is gonna be at the Hilton.
1:06:00 Wali: At the Hilton? Okay, alright.
1:06:00 IWDM: Michigan, yes. But my address is going to be on ... Campus, you know.
1:06:06 Wali: Yes, USC pavilion.
1:06:07 IWDM: Yes, that's right. So that will be the first day, and the second day will be a day of socializing. And in the evening, entertainment, a banquet, a huge banquet, eating fine foods and listening to a few speakers and hearing our entertainers here, and seeing our entertainers, our performers on stage. And then Sunday will be the public address and the topic that we worked out together. They selected something and we worked something out together, is the life... Peace is the lifeblood of Islam and Christianity, or Christianity and Islam. The lifeblood is peace. Peace. Yes, so that will be the topic at that. All I would like to say is that to the audience, to you... I haven't had a chance to speak to you either, on what I'll be talking about, or what I'd be bringing to the audience.
1:07:05 IWDM: What I'd like to say is that peace is the goal of human life and Islam. And my course in social studies, my professor said that pleasure is the motivation and the goal that life seeks, just pleasure. And I had some problem with that, but I have to agree with it, because in our Holy book, it has pleasure and peace as the end, and when you have made peace with G-d, and to make peace with G-d, you have to have peace with your fellow man. When you have achieved peace with G-d, you have the ultimate pleasure, you have the greatest pleasure possible for a human being, when you have peace with G-d. So they both come at the same time, once you realize a state of peace for yourself, you also realize the greatest amount of pleasure in your soul. But that's a goal that seems to be an end, is not really an end. It's a goal, as an end. But it's not really an end for your life.
1:08:12 IWDM: I think it was... Yeah, Nixon wrote a book, President Nixon. He wrote a book and he said, I think he said, "Beyond Peace", that's the title, I think, Beyond Peace. Well, there is something beyond peace. Peace is a condition necessary for us to build the best possible life we can have on this planet for ourselves, so we have now... What's in the way of a good life for us as Americans? It is the things that are denying us peace, the Palestinian and Israeli situation. It denies us peace. We're not pleased with the way things are going. That is, we're not pleased with this problem for mankind and it's not being solved, that's what we're not pleased with. I'm not at all saying that we're not pleased with the way our country is handling... Or the government is handling that situation.
1:09:10 IWDM: If we were put in this situation, maybe we couldn't handle it as well as our government is handling it. So, I don't wanna judge without all the facts before me. But we are not pleased with innocent lives being lost, whether it's coming against us from someone or we are taking it to someone ourselves, is coming from us against someone else. We are not at all comfortable and can't be comfortable with innocent people being killed, innocent lives being made miserable, etcetera. So this is a problem for our peace, and we can't have peace. But this is not gonna be my subject, I'm not gonna talk about these things. I believe that peace is finally reached because people are educated properly and people once they're educated, possibly, they could have peace in their own souls, and then they can become a separate and independent promoter of peace.
1:10:13 IWDM: You see? So we have to better educate our publics, and Middle East people, they have to better educate their publics, and once the publics are better educated, the publics will be able to achieve peace for themselves in their souls, peace for their own souls. You have a satisfying picture of yourself. You feel good about yourself, then you can have peace that makes the negative force becomes positive. And you're not fighting, but you're winning friends. You're not beating people off as enemies, but you're trying to... You're desire is to make friends and to see more people included in the Good Life. This condition can come about if we better educate our publics. One lady on the plane, she saw me and she recognized me, I didn't recognize her. She said, "Imam Muhammad." I said, "Yes?" I said, "How are you?" She said, "The world is changing, isn't it?" I said, "Yes, it is." She said, "Education is doing it." And I agree with her.
1:11:13 Wali: Absolutely. And that's the key, that is the key. Summation, that... You said it, that was a summation right there.
1:11:20 IWDM: Well no. They're almost, almost.
1:11:25 Wali: [laughter] Almost... But Imam, one final question, and this is just hypothetical and just something to think about, because I often thought about... I know some of the other leaders who have gone and left us behind. 25 years, 50 years from now, what will you think of? What would you like for your legacy and your contribution to the world to be?
1:11:52 IWDM: Well, I think I'd like to see it talked about and imagined along with the other great contribution that I see individuals and organizations are making so that we can have a better life in the future, on this planet. Like World Conference of Religions for Peace, that I belong to, that I'm a member of and also a president of, one of the presidents in America. They are presidents all over the world, in Africa and many other places. I would like to see Imam W. Deen Muhammad's contribution recognized along with the other great contributions... Many great contributions that are being made to... In hopes of us having a better world for our children to come.
1:12:42 Wali: But Imam W. Deen Muhammad, thank you very much for being with us. May Allah continue to bless you with strength in the spirit, and you're getting younger every day. [laughter] Keep using the shea butter.
1:12:52 IWDM: The shea butter, I am, I am, I am.

