02/27/1987
IWDM Study Library
IWDM Prison Chaplain Dialogue Houston TX

By Imam W. Deen Mohammed
Introduction: So that we can know each other better so that we can work together to assure the survival of our country. Now your host Imam Ibrahim Kamalud-Din.
Imam Ibrahim Kamalud-Din: Assalam Alaikum. May the peace of Almighty G-d be upon. Dear beloved people, we want to thank you for joining us again this is Al-Islam in focus. This program is designed to share information with you that we hope will promote a better relationship between people of different faiths and communities. Perhaps we will say something that will make us realize that our first obligation to each other is as human beings created by G-d Almighty.
Then we can begin to get acquainted and get to know each other and build a morally excellent society that will be safe for us and our families. Our subject today is going to be religion in the prisons. We feel that religion is the key. The Word of G-d is the key to solving many of the problems we have in our society. Our first guest is Imam W. Deen Mohammed. He is a Muslim world leader. He is the resident Imam of the Honorable Elijah Muhammad Masjid in Chicago, Illinois. He travels all over the United States of America and also he goes outside of America teaching the Holy Quran and the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad.
The Holy Quran is the last divine revelations that was revealed to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, from G-d Almighty. Imam Mohammed has been blessed by Allah the Almighty with a clear and profound understanding of the Holy Quran and the life example of prophet Muhammad. We also have as a special guest, chaplain Clyde Johnston. He is the chief chaplain of the Texas Department of Correction. He has been with the TDC for 25 years. He received a degree from Southwest Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas.
From the reports that we have heard of him from others, he has a reputation of being very fair and considerate in the treatment of other people whether they are of his religious faith or not. We're very pleased to have him on our program.
Our next guest is Dr. Keith Price. He is a graduate of Sam Houston State College. He has a degree, a Ph.D. in criminal justice administration. He is also a warden on the Darrington unit of the TDC, the Texas Department of Corrections. We also have Imam Eugene W. Farooq. He is a Muslim chaplain who serves the Muslim inmates of the Texas Department of Corrections. He is employed by the TDC as a full-time chaplain. He does not just limit his services to Muslims but to any inmate who needs his help. We're very pleased to have all of you brothers on our program.
Imam W. Deen: Thank you.
Dr. Keith Price: Thank you.
Kamalud-Din: Let's begin our discussion because our time will run out very quickly. The first question I would like to ask Imam W. Deen Muhammad. There's some problems that we have around the country in reference to how the religion should be practiced and in prison, many are many of the inmates convert perhaps to the religion of Al-Islam. They are new and they need to understand the religion better. Also the officials in the prison they would like to have more knowledge of just what the religion is so they'll know better how to serve or help the inmates to be able to practice the religion. Jumu'ah prayer. What we'd like for you to do is to just tell us the basic things that is necessary in order for the inmates to be able to practice Jumu'ah prayer.
W. Deen: First of all, I have to say that in the name of G-d, bismillah. First of all, I should say that the requirements- the religious requirements in terms of what we should be doing depends upon our circumstances, especially when we are addressing the needs of prisoners. If a Muslim is in our community and have been practicing the religion, we are obligated to give them the full range of our services. One who is convicted, if they were convicted as a Muslim, if they were Muslim and then convicted of a crime and the crime is proven against them, if it is a crime against society it is also a crime against our religion.
Kamalud-Din: Yes.
W. Deen: So our obligation to them would not be the same. If one has converted while in prison, then we do have an obligation to that person because we believe in our religion that all is forgiven before conversion. So we do have an obligation to them and our obligation would be to instruct them in the religion and work with the administration, prison administration to see that as they grow in religion, they have an opportunity to practice their religion. As the law accommodates because we can't make more demands in prison than we make in the free society. That doesn't make sense. It's not justified.
Kamalud-Din: Now exactly what are the requirements for Muslims to be able to practice the Jumu'ah prayer? I mean what do they have to have?
W. Deen: They should have at least three Muslim members and one capable of leading the prayers and giving them instruction in religion.
Kamalud-Din: Okay. Now when it comes to like the rugs and things of this nature because there are some believers who are trying to demand to have a certain kind of rugs [unintelligible 00:07:40] and all of these different things because they might believe that they will have to have those things.
W. Deen: Yes, the followers of Prophet Muhammad who supported him in establishing the religion they were the best of Muslims. They didn't have rugs to pray on. We believe that any clean place is suitable for us to pray. A clean floor. For women and delicate people, we would like to have softer padding for them but if we have to all of us should accept even the most delicate ones of us we should accept to pray on a clean floor because G-d says the earth is his mosque. The earth is his house.
Kamalud-Din: Yes, that's correct. Now, Chaplain Johnston-
Chaplain Clyde Johnston: Yes sir.
Kamalud-Din: -anything that you want to say or? You know you're always free to say whatever you want on this program.
Chaplain Johnston: Well, it's great to be back with you imam Mohammed. I'm sorry to see that you're a little lame and I hope that soon is going to be corrected.
W. Deen: Thank you very much.
Chaplain Johnston: I appreciate your gracious spirit and I follow your teachings. I hear your tapes from time to time because it's part of my job to stay on top of what's happening in all world religions and in view of the fact that we have so many of your people in our prison that it's important to me you know that. I really appreciate where I experienced you coming from at the present time in your teachings. I experienced a morality quite similar to that I grew up with some 50 years ago.
I know it's basically sound and basically good and I just hope you're not going to lose control of your group. If you keep it on the right track you're going to do some marvelous things for your people and then for other lives that your people will touch. It's just great to be with you today on the program.
W. Deen: Thank you chaplain Johnson. I always feel good to be in your presence.
Kamalud-Din: Dr. Price? 

Dr. Price: Imam, it's glad to finally get to meet you at last. I've followed development of your religion for quite some time. I really want to have you discuss some of the impacts that you feel Islam can have as a practitioner. An administrator faced daily with one of the charges of trying to change people's lives. I would be interested in your comments on how Islam can impact on changing that individual's life. One making my job easier, two hopefully meeting some of the objectives charged to the Texas Department of Corrections. To change, to reform, to put back an individual as a workable part of society again. How do you feel Islam can contribute to this?
W. Deen: First of all, our religion require that we accept personal responsibility. More than anything else in our religion, the preacher is to address the individual and call the individual's attention to his need to accept responsibility for his own behavior. Muslims are supposed to be responsible for their own behavior. The only excusable person in our religion it's a person who's mentally insane.
As long as they're in possession of their rational mind, we hold them responsible and G-d wants us to focus our attention on that personal responsibility in the community and religious community and also in society. I think if that message is given in the right way so that our members understand that our obligation is personal responsibility. So wherever I am it doesn't matter where I am.
If I'm at home, I have that burden on me, that responsibility is mine. If I'm in the public, that responsibility is mine. If I'm among non-Muslims that responsibility is mine. My life should never be injurious to anybody else's life. My life should always be a welcome, a good welcome, a wholesome thing in society and by other people. I think it will impact if in a very excellent way if that message is addressed. The need to broaden our minds to become more knowledgeable.
Every Muslim is supposed to hold knowledge as a sacred possession of every believer and he's not to be narrow-minded or cut himself off from information and growth and knowledge. Therefore we should take advantage of every opportunity in the prison community to go to the library to take courses that will help us improve our minds.
Dr. Keith: Many inmates and probably staff members as well in prison at least perceive the worship Islam is something that's limited only to the black inmates. Would you care to comment about that?
W. Deen: Yes. That idea came because of us wanting to identify with our ancestors and being told by the teacher the mystic who introduced the religion to us in the poor black community of Detroit in Chicago originally in the '30s that we descended from that Muslim parents and we had as our heritage, Islam. So without real knowledge of this book, this is the universal book, the Holy Quran which is, I guess you would say, is like The Bible. Yes, this would be like our Bible, you see? This is a holy book of the Muslims.
Without having knowledge of this holy book which is number one Authority in the life of Muslims and the way prophet Muhammad himself lived this religion. That he said to Christians that they have their rights in the Muslim state to practice their religion. A Jew, he has his rights in a Muslim state to practice his religion and that Muslims should hold the holy places of Muslims and Jews as being a sacred and if any force would come against them from the heathen society, they should protect the sacred places even for non-Muslims for Jews and Christians Sabiens and others. Yes, so if we had had that knowledge and that kind of understanding I don't think we would have ever came to the belief that this religion is all -- just for blacks.
When you go and make the pilgrimage to Mecca which is an obligation on every Muslim once in his lifetime, you will find that that major focus on Muslims-- international life of Muslims brings to our view the fact that G-d has not given anything for one race, for one tribe but he's given it for humanity. We see Europeans, we see Asians, we see Africans, people from America. Everybody meet there and we all have to accept each other as equals in humanity.
Dr. Keith: Yes. Chaplain Farooq and I earlier we're talking. In the early '70s a lot of paranoia about the movement of Islam into the Texas Department of Corrections. However, at this day and time you know chaplain Farooq comes to my unit regularly and it's simply another religious program but maybe that's not the case in some other prisons. What-?
W. Deen: We do have a problem. It exists because of that first black nationalist orientation- black nationalist instruction and orientation that was formed mainly as a way of addressing Jim Crowism in this country, discrimination in this country. The neglect of black life in this country by blacks as well as by whites. Yes, so it was formed for that purpose. It was a nationalistic movement in the name of Islam. Now, that nationalistic movement has outlived its day. Its day is over because our leader, the man who started it all and made it all popular, he recognized that we are living in different times in America.
The troubles fed upon our life and the oppression that we once experienced during slavery and discrimination in this country, does not exist anymore. He said, "If white people can embrace us, if they can accept us, that they can embrace us, then we should also accept them and embrace them." That's what that leader said. He was the one who made it all important for blacks. Made it all possible for blacks to follow that kind of religion and that kind of discipline. It should be understood too that that leader saw his mission as a mission that was a phase. Represented a phase in what he hoped for his people.
That phase was to terminate with termination of discrimination and the oppression of blacks in this country. From there he expected that a religious man would introduce this religion, universal religion to his followers and bring his followers into the universal light of this religion so that they can live with all people and not just blacks.
Kamalud-Din: Chaplain Farooq.
Imam Eugene W. Farooq: Yes. Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem. Brother imam, first of all, I'd like to extend to you the greetings from the Muslim community within TDC. Asalam Alaykum.
W. Deen: Alaykum Salam.
Imam Eugene: They told me to make sure-
W. Deen: Please return my greetings to them.
Imam Eugene: There's one question that I'd like to pose again that's around the country, there's an increasing demand for Islamic chaplains and Islamic volunteers to come in and to teach the religion of al-Islam. What I would like to know is, what qualifications should these Muslims meet who are looking to come into the prison to help. What should prison administrators look for in these individuals as far as qualifications are concerned?
W. Deen: Yes, first of all, we want excellence. Our holy book says, "And take the best thereof." If we selecting people, we don't want to select the inferior representative. We want to select the best representative. First of all, our religion allows to select the best representative. We have one who has just a knowledge of the Quran. The knowledge of the faith and we have another one who has two years in higher education and he can better represent the religion. We should choose the better educated the better-prepared person. When we don't have that, we accept a person just on that good faith. We should choose the better prepared first.
Prophet Muhammad says, "It's religion that obligate us to perform excellence and to seek excellence no matter what we do." If we have religion in the prisons, we should seek a standard- the highest standard for our propagation. The person should have, I think, first, the good character of Muslims and most essential for our character is moral life. He should also have at least about two years education- college education. Two years of college education after high school. That's what we prefer but if he had the equivalence of that from his private studies and that that can be proven then we will support that.
We would support that and I recommend him to the administration. He should have also understanding that he goes to the administration who's in charge of prisoners. They're not free people. He should work with prison administration.
Kamalud-Din: Any anyone who has-?
Chaplain Johnston: Yes, I'd like to get back with you just a little bit. I experienced our Muslims throughout the prison there's esprit de corps among them. There is a desire to police themselves. There's a desire that they keep their act together. That they look well on the unit and this is very pleasing to us and as administrators makes our job easier. It's also moving them in the direction of rehabilitation which is our phase of the prison activity.
I'm looking on beyond the prison and I'm looking to what our offenders when they're released, what will they find outside and so I'd like to for you if you would although this is for prison, the prison ministry. What will our ex-offenders who are Muslims, what will they run into in the free world? When they get out there. What is the Muslim faith like out there in Al-Islam?
W. Deen: The released inmate should expect to be challenged by the environment and the life of freedom. Our holy book says, "Your own self-obligates you," and our Prophet, peace be upon him, he said that each of you is a right. Which means in Arabic a person given intelligence by G-d and you're responsible for your own life and your own personal behavior. They should expect to meet the challenge, the same challenge that defeated them. They should be prepared as Muslims and people who have received help while they were in prison from the administration and from the Muslims, their brothers, to come out and not be defeated again.
Chaplain Johnston: I appreciate that answer. It's very good.
Kamalud-Din: Imam, would like to make a comment and ask a question at him?
Imam Eugene: There's a question I would like to ask for Imam Muhammad. Is concerning where in Texas there's a problem with gangs. There are some gangs that say their Islam is their religion and they solicit the support of Muslim groups. What I would like to know is how prison administrators distinguished between the true Muslims and those who are gang members disguised? Disguising themselves as Muslims.
W. Deen: The thing that distinguish the Muslim in his belief is that his belief is acceptable to all civilized people. His belief is acceptable to Christians. His belief is acceptable to Jews. All civilized people, if there's something in his belief or in his teachings that offends society then that's an indication right away that he is just going in the name of that religion and using it as a cover for something else.
Chaplain Johnston: I'm hearing you're saying really we got to watch their behavior.
W. Deen: Yes sir.
Chaplain Johnston: If their behavior doesn't coincide with what they- what you've taught them and they're acting out in the deviant way, we know that it's not the true religion.
W. Deen: That's true. That's exactly.
Chaplain Johnston: Fine.
Kamalud-Din: Another question I'd like to bring up is concerning Ramadan. There seems to be some confusion in some places as to exactly what are the required provisions for Ramadan.
W. Deen: Ramadan is one of the five essentials of our religion. It's the third one of the five , - Ramadan. It is expected that all Muslims fast but as I said, when circumstances change then the rites also change from free life to prison life, our rites also change. There our position is not as strong as it is in a free society. We cannot plead the case of a convicted man guilty of a crime as we can plead the case of a free person, a free man. A man whose honorable in a society.
First, we have to understand that fasting is an obligation. If the people who converted in the prison and they're sincere about their religion then we should do all we can to accommodate them when the fast month come. It is a burden on administration because we fast by the Islamic calendar. It's not to be expected at the same time every year in the Western calendar. The time of the fast change every day a little bit. The iman has to go there, be considerate and work out a good program for fasting with the administration. The diet is no pork-free diet. That's all but any food other than pork. I'm sure that pork is the only thing, - you can't get liqour in the prison.
Kamalud-Din: That's right.
W. Deen: The pork is the main thing for us to look out for.
Kamalud-Din: Okay. Now, there's one other question concerning the women of prisons. I've been talking to some chaplains in West Virginia and several other places where they have women's prison. They seem to find- they a little more difficulty in helping the Muslim women who have converted to Al-Islam's in prison to practice the religion they're doing that what the males are.
W. Deen: As you brought to my attention that there's a dress requirement in some prisons as for security purposes.
Kamalud-Din: Yes. They want to accommodate them too.
W. Deen: Yes. The proper Islamic dress for a Muslim woman according to teachings of Prophet Muhammad is to cover herself leaving only her hands, her feet, hands, face exposed but there's also in the Hadith of the Prophet as reported by the Honorable Lady Khadijah, the wife of the Prophet, may G-d be pleased with her. She said that a certain woman was in a situation where they had to bring water and attend the men who were at war.
That woman when crossing kind of marsh area where the ground was soggy she raised her dress to walk across that area. That was accepted that she exposed her legs in that situation. Muslims shouldn't be, I would say persistent, insistent in demanding that they wear long dresses for women, wear long dresses in the prison. We should ask for as much accommodation as we possibly can get in the prisons. If the dress is modest, I think we can go along with that.
Kamalud-Din: Thanks. I would like to thank you for coming on the program. First of all, I'd like to thank Imam W. Deen Mohammed for taking out from his busy schedule and also Chief Chaplain Clyde Johnston, Dr. Keith Price, who was the warden of the Darrington unit of the Texas Department of Corrections and Imam Eugene W. Farooq. I'd like to thank all of you for coming out and be on our program. Dear beloved people, I would like to thank you for sticking with us through the program.
[00:27:00] [END OF AUDIO]

