2005 October 1st
Tony Brown Interview With Imam W. Deen Mohammed
Tony Brown:
... Islamic clerics and scholars, although you may not regard yourself in that category, such as yourself, during these troubling times to understand what's going on. You see on the cover of magazines, "Why do they hate us?" You see Americans turning and buying the Qur'an, now have made it one of the best-selling books in America, perhaps in the world, in the West.
Tony Brown:
In this climate, what is the role of the Muslims? What leadership role should the Muslims facilitate? And let me ask you the question, just see if I can lead you in this way. If the Muslims do not lead the United States and the West, and perhaps the Islamic world, in understanding Islam, there is no way out of this dilemma. We're not going to win militarily. We can't kill everybody in the world who disagrees with us. If we kill Osama bin Laden, there will be, and are, thousands of people who are willing to take his place.
Tony Brown:
So we have to know. And the Muslims in this regard, in my opinion, have to lead this nation in terms of understanding what this situation is all about. So what is the role of a Muslim, from your standpoint, in the United States and in the world during this crisis?
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Firstly, to return to the purity of our religion. Go back to the Qur'an and read it again with fresh eyes and fresh minds, and separate ourselves from hurt, of any bitterness, or any bad image we have of any nation, including America. And read the Qur'an and see what G-d is saying to us, and read the life of Muhammad, the prophet, our prophet, who lived this religion perfectly for us. He left his way with us. That's number one.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
After that, then know what your citizenship is, American citizenship is. Know what the American citizenship is. Immigrants, when they come here, they pledge allegiance to the flag, to the United States. If they don't do that, they can't come here. They can't be citizens here. And they have done that, and they have said that this is one nation under G-d.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
So understand that and believe it, that this is one nation under G-d. I believe that, psychologically, you cannot benefit from this country as a citizen, until you strongly identify with the founding fathers' hope for this country, of a kind of nation we want, and strongly identify with all the good American people who cherish that and will die for it. And I'm one of them.
Tony Brown:
All right, now I want to move to another topic. And I received an email that I'm going to read from, from a man in Torrance, California. And I think this is a challenge for you and for people like you, who can help us understand, and I think it comes from a point of view that many people hold, Americans. Perhaps they won't admit it in public, but a lot of this is misconception, and I would like for you to respond to it. I'd like to read you this one sentence that I wrote to set it up. And this is what I wrote, I'm not quoting the man yet. This is me. Mindful that six million Muslims, 3 million or 50% of whom are African-Americans, live in the United States, President Bush, in the wake of the death of 6,000 innocent Americans at the hands of extremists, advised that we should avoid describing terrorists as, "Islamic."
Tony Brown:
President Bush said, "The people who did this act on America, and who may be planning further acts, are evil people. They don't represent an ideology. They don't represent a legitimate political group of people. They're flat evil." And he went on to say, "Those attacks had nothing to do with Islam." In this email from a man, I said, from Torrance, California, he offers the following history, analysis, and challenge to the American Muslim community. I'd like to read a paragraph at a time, and I'd like for you to respond in any way you'd like. This is his first paragraph.
Tony Brown:
"True Islam, we are told by moderate American Muslims, means submission to G-d. It is a religion of peace, equality and tolerance. Typical was a Muslim doctor in Los Angeles in the Los Angeles Times when he said that the September 11 attacks were "insane crimes" which have "nothing to do with any religion and it has nothing to do with Islam. The teaching of Islam is totally against violence." That's what a Muslim doctor said. Another Times article informs, "Muslims don't proselytize, and they, the terrorists, are not practicing Islam. Islam is a peace-loving religion." That's another point of view.
Tony Brown:
"We're also informed that the concept of jihad, struggle or holy war for Allah, is really a personal war for self-mastery, having nothing to do with waging war against others. In sum, we're being told that the alleged hijackers were not true Muslims, but deranged and aberrant members of some fringe cult, foreign to Islam." And I'm sure you agree with all of that.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yes.
Tony Brown:
You've said that [inaudible 00:05:58].
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yes, yes. Identifying Muslims, what Muslims are, we have extremists in Islam, but most of the extremists in Islam that we except as religious personalities, those extremists were mystics, and they took mysticism to the extreme. I don't think anywhere I can find any support for including those who have mentalities like Adolf Hitler had, or persons who killed innocents to get attention to their cause, among those extremists. So when we say "extremist", we're talking about extremist in mysticism and not extremist in conduct, in human conduct or human behavior.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Extremists in human behaviors are condemned. They are not accepted as Muslims. So regardless of what the person who's writing these, saying these things, has in his mind, I know for a fact that Islam must be always accepted and cannot be accepted any other way as a religion of peace, a religion of diplomacy, which we may say tolerance and respect for others. And it is a religion of human excellence. So this religion forbid that I not respect my own good human nature. It says... Can I speak in with Arabic maybe?
Tony Brown:
Please.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Okay. For those who in the audience, they understand Arabic. [Arabic 00:07:38] says, "[Arabic 00:07:39]," in our Qur'an. G-d says that this religion is being [Arabic 00:07:45]. He said this, your religion, when it was established to Muhammad, G-d announced that this is a religion patterned on the original pure pattern of the human being. His original human nature, innocence. We believe in the innocence of man, that man is born innocent, though in sin. In a world of sin he's born, but he is born, - his own essence is innocent and pure. Every baby born anywhere, any country, state and nation, is born innocent and pure. This is what we believe.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
And what G-d is telling us, that your religion respects the purity of your creation that G-d gave you, and it's made to complement that. It is put upon that pattern. So if my human nature, if something bothers me in my heart, I have to respect that. Muhammad said if you don't know the law or the commandment or anything from your religion to give you what you need to make a decision, if what you're considering wavers and just keeps bothering you inside, leave it go. So it bothers me to see a baby killed, not to mentioned that many that was killed when the suicide bombers hit the World Trade Center.
Tony Brown:
What does this do for an American Muslim, psychologically? Being a human being, an American Muslim is no different from an American Christian-
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
No, no.
Tony Brown:
... or an American Jew. And to see people jump from a building 70 stories high to avoid burning to death, and then in absolute desperation, flap their arms trying to fly, moves one to tears.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yes, yes.
Tony Brown:
And it hurts. It doesn't matter what. But aside from that, I'm not an American Muslim, but if I were an American Muslim, I then would have to say the people who did this are called members of my faith. What does this do to the Muslim inside who is an American, who's a good American? And most American Muslims are good Americans. What does this do psychologically?
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yes. I was in Washington, DC at that time. It so happened that I was there. A group of religious leaders had been invited by President Bush to meet with him at three o'clock that afternoon to discuss profiling.
Tony Brown:
Muslim?
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yes, profiling. And I think some two Christians among them, too. Yes, Christians and Muslim. And when I heard of what had happened, immediately I felt hurt, frightened, horrified. I never thought of those persons as Muslims, and I will never be able to think of them as Muslims.
Tony Brown:
You mean-
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
The persons who perpetrated. The persons who actually carried out that horrible thing.
Tony Brown:
In one of the handbooks, or the handbook, that was found that those men brought with them, it instructed them to live in America, cut off their beards, don't wear long white shirts, do not associate with other Muslims, do not go to the mosque, do not pray, consort with women, live like whatever other American. The night before, some of them were out, allegedly ordering prostitutes to their hotel rooms, drinking whiskey. That doesn't sound like a Muslim to me.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
No, not at all.
Tony Brown:
How could you die in the name of Allah, and then offend Allah-
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
No.
Tony Brown:
... with your very conduct?
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
No. Even the most warp-minded Muslim who thinks themself to be a Muslim, couldn't have done that, couldn't have ordered prostitutes and drank liquor.
Tony Brown:
What do you tell-
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Indoctrination had killed their religion [crosstalk 00:12:08]. Indoctrination had killed their religion, took their religion out of their minds and heart.
Tony Brown:
By the time they became terrorists, they were no longer Muslims?
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
They were no longer Muslims.
Tony Brown:
They'd been turned into-
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
No longer conscious Muslims. No.
Tony Brown:
If they weren't Muslims, what would you call them?
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Instruments of terror.
Tony Brown:
Will Allah accept an instrument of terror in paradise?
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
No, indeed. No, indeed. According to our religion, if they have done the thing that's unforgivable, they will never have the paradise. And I know what some of them are told, that they're going to straight to paradise because they are doing the shahid. The act of the shahid, martyr. They are martyrs.
Tony Brown:
This wouldn't be the first religion to be hijacked. Adolf Hitler was a Christian.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yep.
Tony Brown:
His inner circle were Christian.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yeah.
Tony Brown:
So Osama bin Laden is clearly [crosstalk 00:13:08] and the Ku Klux Klan. So Osama bin Laden is more like Adolf Hitler than he is like a good Muslim.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
If he is the mastermind behind it all.
Tony Brown:
If he is, assuming-
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yes.
Tony Brown:
... Of course, assuming that he is guilty-
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yes.
Tony Brown:
... And that those people did what they're charged with doing.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yes.
Tony Brown:
Then whoever did that. Let's put it this way. Whoever masterminded it, whoever financed it, whoever carried it out, if they were Muslims, are more like Adolf Hitler-
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Exactly.
Tony Brown:
... Than they are a Muslim.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yes, exactly.
Tony Brown:
So we're fighting evil.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yes, we are [inaudible 00:13:43]-
Tony Brown:
What is the role-
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
And something else President Bush said that I agree with very strongly, and he really touched my heart when he said this. He said, "This is an attack upon our freedom." And really, I think those persons... Not the incident, I'm not addressing the incident now of September 11th, I'm addressing extremists in the Muslim world who sees the West as our enemy.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Those persons should be aware that this religion advocates moderation, it advocates the best canvas of civilized society. This is all in the Qur'an. And it advocates us modeling ourselves after the best human image. The best human image, it says. Human image, human type. They should be aware of that and, well, I'll leave it there.
Tony Brown:
But there is a role for Muslims.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yes.
Tony Brown:
And there is a role for people like yourself who are very influential with a very significant portion of American society. And I might say that Muslims in America are the best educated, as I read, in the world. And the immigrant Muslims who come here are largely, and to great extent, professional people-
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yes, exactly.
Tony Brown:
... who have brought skills to this country.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Exactly.
Tony Brown:
And the African-Americans who are Muslims, and based on my experience with your community, are exemplary people on average, as much as or more so than any other American. What is their role? How can the Muslim American community, I think I want to ask, how can it help lead our nation out of this dilemma we are in? Can it help explain America, as you've done on this program, to the rest of the world, [crosstalk 00:15:58] America?
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Yes, we can, and I feel that we have an obligation to do that. We live in America, and we enjoy the benefits of American citizenship, and I know that these are very precious benefits. You don't find them abroad. It's hard to find the citizenship quality and benefits that we enjoy in this country. So it's our obligation, as Muslims, to embrace all of our good American citizens, irrespective of their color, nationality, or their religion. If they are citizens accepting the meaning of citizenship in America, then we cannot exclude them from our circle of friends and brothers. We must accept them because they have accepted that G-d is creator, and that G-d is over this country.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
That this country, its government, its people, the Senate, the Congress, the president, all of our great leaders respect that G-d is the authority over this country. And we are trying to have a country that we believe G-d is pleased with. So any Muslim, he doesn't have to be a Christian; a Buddhist, Muslim, a Christian, a Hindu, all of us, if we like that idea, we should bond closely together. [crosstalk 00:17:27] So our role should be, as Muslims, to promote and contribute to the bonding of the American citizenry, one nation united. One nation united, not divided. That's what we should work for. That should be our role as citizens of this country. And our role as Muslims should be to give our support to all good structures, and to this great nation that recognizes G-d as being authority over it.
Tony Brown:
Was that...
Speaker 3:
Five-
Tony Brown:
Five, two-
Speaker 3:
[inaudible 00:18:03].
Tony Brown:
Okay, all right. Okay. Anything I missed? I want to make sure we get... Okay, I want to do a "thank you". You ready? You want to look at me, sir?
Tony Brown:
Imam Mohammad, I want to thank you very much for the privilege of this interview. Thank you for helping direct our nation and our world, I might say, at such a troubling time.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Well, I must say thank you to you for helping African American people with our lives and be more rational and know how to live in a material world, as well as a spiritual world. And I want to thank you for the great service you have done to mankind by inviting me to come on with you.
Tony Brown:
Thank you. Okay, now the [inaudible 00:18:53]. And sir, you're free.
Imam W. Deen Mohammed:
Thank you, thank you. We have to hit the road, as they say.


